Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#16 Post by steelabjur » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:42 am

Proforce wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:50 pm
Neptune wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:44 pm

The comic is third-person, not Zen's POV

Have you read all of the comic yet? If you haven't, I would suggest that. Also welcome to the Forum, we do idiotic stuff here
Oh I know that, I just meant specifically this one strip. Sorry for not making that clear. Since the views we have of Natani seem to come from Zen's eyes, that's why I was wondering that.

And I'm a longtime reader who finally got off his rear to join the Forum. I usually just like to lurk in the background and stuff, but wifey says I need to be more social, both online and off.
Zen's response in the fourth panel:
Zen wrote:Wah! Who... Natani? Why did you make yourself look younger... and a girl?
(emphases mine) makes it clear that Nat controls how he appears in these mental contacts.

So, we got an over/under on this situation with Kat taking care of Zen is going to lead to The Florence Nightingale effect coming into play?
ZeroJinKui wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:33 pm
it is a bit disappointing that natani isn't willing to be herself here.

i'm still not sure about natani's gender... i mean, there is being transgender, which is fine and all, but then there is being something just to please someone else.

i do have a bad memory at times, was it ever confirmed that natani is TRULY transgender, or just views herself as a male to satisfy her brother, among other reasons?

i mean, the fact that her younger self IS female, 100%... makes me think it's the latter, it's just zen's influence making natani think she's something she's not.

i'm all for people being who they are, but lying to yourself isn't good for you.

either way, i hope natani fully comes to terms with who she is... and her and keith make things official soon. :heart:
I believe he would fall into the transgender range. He isn't just crossdressing and "lying" to himself, the part of his personality that controls gender identity was destroyed by a magical attack and a link to his brother's was created to save his life. A good way to think of it is the young version is his mind healing from the link being severed combined with memories from before the link was established.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#17 Post by Hulk10 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:07 am

Who knows if Natani is transgender or not. Maybe she is maybe she isn't.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#18 Post by TheMouse » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:59 am

I was going to shuffle something with the middle row, but... I realized that all my jokes are super lewd, and I'm also not very good with editing software.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#19 Post by James Polymer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:21 am

Technic[Bot] wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:47 am
Throwing my to bits about Natani.
According to 923 Natani has always liked being seen as a boy and both her masculine and feminine side, are his/her own and not necessarily something Zen brought to her mind. However it was also stated before that when Natani's mind broke, her gender was damaged and patched up with Zen's, or that is what they told her. So Natani's current situation comes both from her environment, wolf society does not seem very "egalitarian", her neurological issues and how she is.
Personally I imagine Natani to be non-gender conforming but it is open to interpretation I imagine this is by design as it is a rather sensitive topic no matter on which side you are. And historically, the civility of the discussion tends to drop everytime it is discussed.
O-M-G, I am totes triggered right now! :evil:

Seriously, though, until Word of God (or in this case, Word of Tom) explicitly states what Natani's situation is, speculation on our part is just that...speculation. Until then, I'm more than happy to stare at the wolf's rippling pecs and abdominals I mean enjoy the immersive story and progressive character development. :oops:
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#20 Post by AmigaDragon » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:41 am

GaySailors wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:01 pm
It's also worth noting that Natani is still a man in her dreams, even after some of the pep talk she had about being herself. Maybe shes not as comfortable as being seen as female as we thought before.
She's split on the issue. :wink:
Technic[Bot] wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:47 am
Natani has always liked being seen as a boy and both her masculine and feminine side, are his/her own and not necessarily something Zen brought to her mind. However it was also stated before that when Natani's mind broke, her gender was damaged and patched up with Zen's, or that is what they told her. So Natani's current situation comes both from her environment, wolf society does not seem very "egalitarian", her neurological issues and how she is.
Early on before the link she was posing as a guy because wolf society views females as weak. The assassins guild doesn't allow them in, so the male persona was reinforced by prior practice and then enhanced by Zen's attitude.

Why is his head hurting, might it be hangover effects from all the herbs Raine gave him?
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#21 Post by Wobaku » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm

According to 923 Natani has always liked being seen as a boy and both her masculine and feminine side, are his/her own and not necessarily something Zen brought to her mind.
Yes she enjoyed looking like a boy, probably something that was pretty much forbidden for female wolves, and liked acting masculine, but those are very different things than wanting to be a boy. They are also things that tomboys like doing, and tom has called her a tomboy in the past.
Youngnatani explicitly stated she did not mind being a girl, this means she only started thinking of herself as a man and despising her body after the soulshatter. She is/was ''transgender'' because of dark magic, not a choice she made, and no one in the real world is transgender because of dark magic, so I don't think the word fits. But like you said, it's been purposefully left ambiguous.
makes it clear that Nat controls how he appears in these mental contacts.
The previous time Natani was in this mindscape she appeared as a woman and expressed her anger at being stuck like that in there, so she doesn't have complete control over it.

Like I said above, she was only ''transgender'' because of Zens influence, and the way I see it all of her development in the comic has been about her moving away from her cut and pasted Zen mentality and towards her real self, she's hit some major milestones along the way, especially since meeting youngnat, like revealing her body to all of group A (admittedly she didn't particularly want to, but she didn't mind much) acting feminine around Keith, and even offering Keith a handful, things she would never have done at the beginning of the story. Natani has come a long way from the person who denied the existence of her breasts in the early chapters, and her development isn't going to stop where it is now. In my opinion she'll definitely be content with being called ''she'' by the end of the story, but I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, the term transgender may have once fit her but it won't by the time her story is wrapped up.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#22 Post by Warrl » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:41 pm

ZeroJinKui wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:33 pm
i do have a bad memory at times, was it ever confirmed that Natani is TRULY transgender, or just views herself as a male to satisfy her brother, among other reasons?
It's all somewhat speculative at this point.

My take on it is that prior to a certain incident involving Zen and Clovis and a now-dead mage, (young) Natani was near-neutral and perhaps fluid. Since then, Natani (the one we've known all along) is trans, but lately has been sliding somewhat toward neutral. (IMHO nearly everyone is somewhat fluid, but not necessarily over a range that reaches any boundaries or hazy areas between genders.)

There's room for disagreement on all of that but please let's not argue about it.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#23 Post by amenon » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:40 pm

Really fun page :grin:
GaySailors wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:01 pm
It's also worth noting that Natani is still a man in her dreams, even after some of the pep talk she had about being herself. Maybe shes not as comfortable as being seen as female as we thought before.
This isn't news, since Natani already reverted to male in the mindscape all the way back in 933, third to last panel. (Speechless for a better view, why not.)

Based on what youngtani said at the time, he was manifesting as female because he was feeling weak, and equated that in himself (still unclear how sexist Natani is in general; opinions vary; mine is that it was mostly self-directed) with weakness. So when he reverted back to male, it was either because 1) he stopped feeling weak or 2) he stopped equating femininity with weakness. I think it's pretty clear based on what's followed since that it was the latter.

steelabjur wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:42 am
Zen's response in the fourth panel:
Zen wrote:Wah! Who... Natani? Why did you make yourself look younger... and a girl?
(emphases mine) makes it clear that Nat controls how he appears in these mental contacts.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of this, in light of the fact that Natani was indeed previously plot-importantly unable to control his appearance. Could be that that's just the only thing that occurred to Zen, even if it's not actually possible; could be that they have partial control; could be that they normally have full control. Something to note is that Natani's hair appears intact here. But would that be conscious or subconscious? Who knows.

And avwolf would want me to mention that Zen has been known to appear in clothes he may or may not actually own.

Wobaku wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm
Yes she enjoyed looking like a boy, probably something that was pretty much forbidden for female wolves, and liked acting masculine, but those are very different things than wanting to be a boy. They are also things that tomboys like doing, and tom has called her a tomboy in the past.
There's two points I like to bring up when it comes to youngtani:

1) As long as youngtani and Natani are two different people, I don't think who youngtani is/was necessarily has much bearing on who Natani is. Stuff changed when the branch happened, that much is clear by all accounts.

2) While I agree with the read that youngtani is much more likely to be a tomboy than trans, I don't think it's a certainty. And if it comes to pass that youngtani's gender identity == Natani's gender identity, then I'm personally still gonna place my bets on that turning out to be closer to trans.

The thing about youngtani is that she 'died' before she ever entered puberty in full. She wouldn't have been able to pass as a male topless or anything, but her body is still very androgynous compared to what it would eventually become, and she's never been in heat -- so she never had to deal with either of Natani's two biggest complaints with the body.

Would that have mattered? Beats me, but I don't think it's an open-and-shut case.

Wobaku wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm
Youngnatani explicitly stated she did not mind being a girl, this means she only started thinking of herself as a man and despising her body after the soulshatter. She is/was ''transgender'' because of dark magic, not a choice she made, and no one in the real world is transgender because of dark magic, so I don't think the word fits. But like you said, it's been purposefully left ambiguous.
To get into the semantics, I don't think there's anything about the word 'transgender' that doesn't apply, if Natani is in fact a trans-analogue. It's only the cause that would be weird, not the end result.

Or to put it another way; Keidran are neither real nor human, but that doesn't mean that the comic can't have anything to say about racism.

Wobaku wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm
acting feminine around Keith, and even offering Keith a handful, things she would never have done at the beginning of the story.
The way I see it is that Natani is now basically behaving like you might expect a guy transformed into a girl to behave. This page comes to mind, both for the explanation in panel 4, and the memorable demonstration of the behavior :grin:

Plus, that shoe kinda fits. It's just that the transformation was mental, not physical.

Wobaku wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm
In my opinion she'll definitely be content with being called ''she'' by the end of the story, but I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, the term transgender may have once fit her but it won't by the time her story is wrapped up.
The bets have been placed, but the wheel remains in motion :P

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#24 Post by Phaing » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm

So, Natani is right in her own head, but not in her bother's head.

Man, I'm really wishing that link could remain severed now. Not being able to deal with life as it really is .... that's called insanity. And yes, it is contagious.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#25 Post by Schrodinger » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:52 pm

I'd like to remind everyone that this conversation is taking place inside of a mindscape and what we're seeing is simply mental projections. Natani views himself as male and with undamaged hair. Youngtani is feminine but maintains a tomboyish attitude. Zen is a typical male keidran and appears as such. I'm on mobile so I can't link anything, but when Zen attacked group B and Natani was projecting himself, he wasn't wearing the outfit he appeared to be in, instead wearing what he used to when the pair was on assignment way back in their introduction.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#26 Post by BadFoMo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:15 pm

Am I the only one who looks at the colors of the flowers and thinks that each one came from someone in the ‘Super Party’?

Either that, or the incredibly crackpot theory that Kathrin has already gotten into the room on the third floor, stolen Trace's forbidden knowledge/power and used it to turn everyone else into a flower leaving just her alone with Zen to be her new squeeze. Well, they're almost alone, she has to track down just one last loose end cough Natani cough; then she can have Zen all to herself.


Also, did this get updated before I got here?
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#27 Post by Candycat » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:42 pm

This probably a coincidence but I cannot shake the feeling that there is almost a Loss meme buried in this page...

Right? The last four panels?
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#28 Post by Panther » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:44 am

Schrodinger wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:52 pm
when Zen attacked group B and Natani was projecting himself, he wasn't wearing the outfit he appeared to be in, instead wearing what he used to when the pair was on assignment way back in their introduction.
Zen was fully clothed when he had attacked the group B , but Red has undressed him after the fight and tied . Zen got a pants later and been cuffed too
Man is a wolf for man ........ Don't insult the wolves :natani:

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#29 Post by Shockwave07 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:59 am

Dudetani doesn't look too bad... But it's clear even if Natani doesn't have a clear idea what's going on with her mental gender identity I think somehow the link the magi brothers share has been suppressing youngtani.

And something in the dialogue when Natani met Youngtani suggested the male identifying (or at least willingness to be male) came before the link...

Give me a sec.

Edit: Not conclusive proof Natani was originally trans, but certainly wasn't completely feminine.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/931/

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/932/

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#30 Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:26 am

The seeing double thing raises interesting points.
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