amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
It matters for two reasons, one because she hasn't ''got there'' yet, she is still progressing, and more importantly, because I honestly do not think that deep down Natani has this ''i'm definitely a man'' mentality, to elaborate, I believe there is a part of Natani's personality she suppresses, whether she realises it or not, that is more laid back, playful and feminine that her usual outward demeanour, (note that nothing in this paragraph is about youngtani, just our Natani) that gives her urges to do things like act nurturing towards Keith when he's hurt, that entire night in the mansion where she did the voice, and make her want to wear girly things like lingerie or
Adelaide's dress, this is probably the best example, as she has her fantasy then immediately buries it under ''No no no no, that's not me!''
That's a credible read, and I certainly do expect Natani to go with more of those feminine impulses in the future, rather than always fighting them, but I don't see him shifting on the gender issue. I guess you could say that I think if that was going to happen, it would have happened already.
I could see it still being impending too, but my best guess is against.
We have different opinions on Natani's final destination in terms of her gender, and there isn't really any point debating it.
As far as timescales go though, like I said before Natani herself states things aren't going to change overnight, and it has been just a single day since her encounter with Youngnat.
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
I did not mean to imply current Natani is ''not a person'', or a pseudo copy of Zen, or anything else the people in that thread were implying. The way I see it, Zen's influence merely coloured some of Natani's memories and emotions, but not all of them or even a majority, Youngtani says a ''lot of blanks'' had to be filled in, and years before that when the link is explained it's said that parts of Natani were gone(and one of those parts was her sense of gender), but it isn't said anywhere that the majority of her is gone.
So I am of the opinion that she still has plenty of childhood/pre link memories that Zen/the link haven't altered at all, it's not like they were spending every second of every day together as kids.
One thing that I absolutely agree with Kryss on; what Natani lost was far too big to be written off. She either died, lost effectively
all her memories, or both. His entire sense of self got re-interpreted through Zen's memories. And Zen, unfortunately, had a grotesquely flawed view of who his sister was.
Which servers to further remind me that that's the big open question between them right now; how will the both of them deal with that knowledge? Is Natani going to call him out? How will Zen process having subjected Natani to years of needless self-doubt and struggle, all because of his own garbage idiot-child ego? There's a near-nuclear amount of irony in that it was more or less his desire to protect her that did the damage.
I didn't mean to imply her loss can be handwaved, I just meant that she did not lose her identity from before the link, merely that it got tainted by Zen's perception. To what extent is up to us to decide.
In the quote box below, which I won't be responding to separately, you say you agree with me that Natani is her own person, not someone shaped by Zen, so I find your claim here that she died/ceased being herself contradictory.
I think you are giving too much credit/blame to Zen for shaping Natani, just like Natani herself was, and
YoungNat corrects her on this. The entire point of the mindscape was to make Natani realise that she isn't who she is because of Zen, but because of herself. Youngnat also says this herself on that page.
Also, personally I don't believe anything implies that Zen went on viewing Natani as weak&helpless for years, just when she
genuinely was young and afraid.
I view the mind-copying part of the link as a one time thing, and when Natani was going through it (the linking procedure), she again legitimately was reliant on zen - she was half dead, weaker than Zen, and about the same age as Maeve is now. It was Zen's responsibility to take care of his helpless little sister, and what he was feeling at the time got copied over and ''burned into'' Natani. I don't believe he went on viewing her as weak and helpless for any length of time, and I don't think it would have altered Natani's opinions of herself if he did either way.
Let me ask you this, if Zen
has gone on viewing Natani as his weak baby sister, and that
was the cause of all her inner turmoil, and Zen was to die - Do you think that Natani would eventually stop viewing women as weak, etc etc purely Because of his removal from her mind? To me, the answer is no, because the idea of women being weak/Natani being helpless isn't something that was mentally reinforced to her day after day, it's an opinion she has because it got copied over
once when the link was first made.
As I pointed out on another discussion, even if your opinions are correct I don't think Zen could have even been aware that Natani viewed
herself as especially weak/inferior. And even if he suspected something was up, he probably wouldn't have pried out of respect for her.
So the bottom line is, I don't think that being linked to Zen fundamentally changed who Natani was (with the exception of her becoming ''male'') and I also believe that if the soulshatter never happened Natani would still have grown into a person very similar to who we have now. But we don't have to agree.
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
Zen had his influence on her yes, but simply the fact that she turned out to have a different mindset than Zen should prove beyond any doubt she is first and foremost her own person. To add, Zen may have had his influence on her, but Natani is the one who chose how to react to this influence, Zen was her crutch for many years, but the point of the mindscape was her learning to walk without that crutch, so to say, as well as Youngtani reminding Natani that she should neither depend on Zen nor give him credit/blame him for who Natani ended up being, because she isn't a female Zen, she's Natani. It was not about Natani turning back into Youngtani.
We disagree on the implications re: memory, but this I can all agree on.
Though I would modify the crutch analogy to say that Zen was a cast. Immediately useful, but ultimately just hampering and paralyzing.
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
In my opinion, as long as she has a male mentality she is going to want a male body, that means there will always be this unfulfillable desire in the back of her mind to have something she can't have, it will make her bitter over her lot in life, and it might even turn to jealousy towards Keith down the road. The physical part of any relationship, any encounter, will always be second fiddle to what she could/''should'' have had if she was born into the ''right'' body.
I think that, while this is a reasonable read, it's an unnecessarily pessimistic one. Continuing to treat Natani as a trans-analogue, transitioning isn't something every trans person can or indeed even wants to do. Sure, Natani may never have
everything he wants, but who does? Happiness is not precluded.
And further, even if your read is correct, it only invites the question of actually
getting a male body, something that could certainly be in play in this setting, especially now that Clovis is in the picture. An additional bonus there is that it would raise very interesting questions for Natani's and Keith's relationship. Say, for example, that Natani has to make a one-off choice, no takebacks? I would
love to see those scenes.
(Though if Carver's thingamabob is of that nature, then it would more likely to be an on/off thing. Which would also be interesting, if not quite so dramatic.)
The difference is that her desire to have a different body can't be handwaved as ''some thing she'd rather have'' but possibly
The thing she most desires, besides her boyfriend I guess.
But anyway, at the moment her being a Man is the core of who she is, and her body is the complete antithesis to that self-image. And sure she says it's ''not that bad'' to be stuck with her current body in the mansion, but I think she'd still vastly prefer to have a different one. So yeah, she would have a constant weight on her, her desire to be someone else. And every time she looked in a mirror or otherwise got reminded of what she looked like, it would be a reminder of just how inadequate her current situation is. And I view that as a dealbreaker, I certainly wouldn't want live like that any way.
Gonna assume you mean
Clovis' dragon gem? If so I agree it's probably part of his plan to reclaim his old body, and I would love to see the scenario you described play out, even if it runs the risk of shattering my opinions of Natani, depending on what she chooses.
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
I can't agree, Lynn had been calling Natani female that very page, and the impression I get is that she must learn to deal with her femininity, why would she need to deal with her masculinity when she already thinks of herself as a man? The only way she could do that is, reduce/mitigate how much she views herself as a man, i.e. become more feminine.
Not to deal with his masculinity, but to deal with being male in a female body.
Ah, well, that has been where we fundamentally disagree on Natani, I believe her storyline can/will be be summarised as, in a very oversimplified way:
''Natani comes to terms with being a woman, and falls in love with Keith''
Whereas I believe you would lean more to: ''Natani comes to terms with having a woman's body, and falls in love with Keith''
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
I also think it's clear Lynn is a basically the equivalent of a eunuch so I would cast my vote in the ''Made'' pool.
I think I lean that way as well, but I'm all questions and no answers when it comes to method and selection. It's supposed to be a very meritocratic society, so...
They're probably selected at an early age, and it has little to do with their perceived ''worth''. I can't imagine Lynn being a criminal or anything like that, nor do I want to imagine what he might have done to deserve it.
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
The silly emoticon meant I wasn't being fully serious, I don't really think he's an especially 1d character, I was partly poking fun at the fact you could argue Eric is even worse than Clovis, because while Clovis is flat out stated to be a rapist who leads and enables other rapists, at least he doesn't make his victims prisoners within their own minds the way a human slaver does.
Though to be fair, that seems to be because he likes it when they struggle :/
I don't think there's enough info to say who's worse between Eric and Clovis. Trace has the #1 spot, though, at least out of named characters. (Whoever's leading the wolves isn't coming off great either. Nor is Brahn.
Yeah he definitely says something along the lines of ''I like them feisty'' in the context of sex. Still, I don't believe he makes any significant use of control magic or collars - he seems to have gotten off on proving his dominance/superiority, and using magic for that might seem like cheating. He didn't take control of Natani in TDM until his task depended on it, and I think if he was a fan of control magic he would have taken control earlier to make sure she didn't mess up, or something along those lines.
Unfortunately Tom seems to be trying to retcon Evil-Trace into a less despicable character in order to save face. (when we first got a flashback of
the wolves who captured Laura, which trace Killed, there are what appears to be women and what are definitely children amongst the victims, but later on this was retconned into them being a band of mercenaries/slavers) With how much Tom is playing it safe/mellowed out over the last few years, it wouldn't surprise me if it's clarified Trace only killed/enslaved soldiers and let the women and children go free. (Not defending Trace or anything, just typing my thoughts.)
amenon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am
Anyway, Tom seems to be half committed to doing some kind of ''redemption'' arc with Eric, if his last few interactions with Mike & Evals are anything to go off, in order to make Eric a less offensive character.
If that's the angle, then there's quite a bit of work to do. Though I did enjoy the irony of him (at least figuratively, probably literally) paying them
with money he made from selling them.
If he'd gotten half a clue by now and was making any kind of serious effort, he would have given them the full amount of their sale.
(For the record, I think it was a pretty clever calculated move, to kinda get off on a 'good foot' instead of having to worry about Evals throwing him off a balcony. [Mike was always gonna be cool anyway.])
Mike seems to have a bit of Stockholm syndrome towards his life as slave yes, he even said once he doesn't think he could survive in another environment. But perhaps that should just be taken literally, he physically doesn't know how to survive without having some kind of roof and food supplied for him.
I had a similar scenario in mind for what Evals should have done after getting his freedom, but involving a long time inside a headlock, less noticeable.
More seriously I found it kind of disappointing Evals (and Mike) just immediately took his leave of the whole thing after what Eric has put him through, after being one of the only characters to stand up to/point out his evil before*. Perhaps his only concern was getting away from humanity, or perhaps he has a bit of a forgiving personality deep down, not really enough spotlight on him to form a full opinion.
*(besides Kat I guess, but I find her
kind of morally ugly too, and a detriment to the story, but I'll withhold ultimate judgement on her until she gets some development)