Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#31 Post by Schrodinger »

Panther wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:44 am
Schrodinger wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:52 pmwhen Zen attacked group B and Natani was projecting himself, he wasn't wearing the outfit he appeared to be in, instead wearing what he used to when the pair was on assignment way back in their introduction.
Zen was fully clothed when he had attacked the group B , but Red has undressed him after the fight and tied . Zen got a pants later and been cuffed too
Sorry, I was referring to Natani's projection in this instance.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#32 Post by Hulk10 »

Schrodinger wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:33 am
Panther wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:44 am
Schrodinger wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:52 pmwhen Zen attacked group B and Natani was projecting himself, he wasn't wearing the outfit he appeared to be in, instead wearing what he used to when the pair was on assignment way back in their introduction.
Zen was fully clothed when he had attacked the group B , but Red has undressed him after the fight and tied . Zen got a pants later and been cuffed too
Sorry, I was referring to Natani's projection in this instance.
Natani is very shapely, much like Flora.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#33 Post by amenon »

Phaing wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm So, Natani is right in her own head, but not in her bother's head.
Image

The same in both of them. No breasts.

Phaing wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pmNot being able to deal with life as it really is .... that's called insanity. And yes, it is contagious.
What can I say to this, except that this probably isn't the first time you've seen me bring this up? I do it so often some people would rather I shut up a long time ago. Heck, this now makes twice in two pages in this very thread :P

Schrodinger wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:52 pm I'm on mobile so I can't link anything, but when Zen attacked group B and Natani was projecting himself, he wasn't wearing the outfit he appeared to be in, instead wearing what he used to when the pair was on assignment way back in their introduction.
Indeed! (Not pictured on this page is the fact that Natani is currently in his wearing-a-sheet phase.)

On the other hand, later, when Natani was clothed, we got a straight representation instead, up to and including the wrappings. And the last panel here might count too.

... this leads me to conclude that all the times Zen was hanging out in that outfit we've never seen outside the link, he was, in fact, naked :o
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#34 Post by Hulk10 »

They do actually seem to have breasts.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#35 Post by amenon »

Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:00 pm They do actually seem to have breasts.
Just pecs, as on the current page as well.

Here's a side profile from the page previous to that, for comparison: boobies.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#36 Post by Hulk10 »

amenon wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:10 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:00 pm They do actually seem to have breasts.
Just pecs, as on the current page as well.

Here's a side profile from the page previous to that, for comparison: boobies.
The younger one does yeah. The older one doesn't. To my eyes at least.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#37 Post by Warrl »

The positions Zen and Kat are in in the last panel, I doubt he can see her. Not because of his injuries, because she's too far behind him.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#38 Post by Hulk10 »

Yeah probably not.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#39 Post by Wobaku »

Shockwave07 wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:59 am Dudetani doesn't look too bad... But it's clear even if Natani doesn't have a clear idea what's going on with her mental gender identity I think somehow the link the magi brothers share has been suppressing youngtani.

And something in the dialogue when Natani met Youngtani suggested the male identifying (or at least willingness to be male) came before the link...

Edit: Not conclusive proof Natani was originally trans, but certainly wasn't completely feminine.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/931/

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/932/
The things is though that YoungNatani here does not view herself as a Male at this time, she said she enjoyed looking like a boy, doing boyish things and even having masculine emotions*, but she also explicitly states that she did not mind being a girl. And it is a big jump from that to wanting to be a male, and an even bigger jump to actively viewing herself as male.
So in my opinion, pre-curse Natani was just a masculine girl, or if you prefer, tomboy, and from the evidence we're given she is not transgender at all. Now like Amenon said we can't know if she would have developed a desire to be a male as she grew older, but I don't think there is anything suggesting she would have, there isn't anything saying she won't either, but Tom is the only person that might know.

*I want to stress that these [Masculine emotions] shouldn't be taken as evidence that she is transitioning either, as there is no one on on the planet who has 100% masculine or feminine emotions all the time. That doesn't make them between-genders or anything, it just makes them human.


amenon wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:40 pm Really fun page :grin:
Wobaku wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm Yes she enjoyed looking like a boy, probably something that was pretty much forbidden for female wolves, and liked acting masculine, but those are very different things than wanting to be a boy. They are also things that tomboys like doing, and tom has called her a tomboy in the past.
There's two points I like to bring up when it comes to youngtani:

1) As long as youngtani and Natani are two different people, I don't think who youngtani is/was necessarily has much bearing on who Natani is. Stuff changed when the branch happened, that much is clear by all accounts.

2) While I agree with the read that youngtani is much more likely to be a tomboy than trans, I don't think it's a certainty. And if it comes to pass that youngtani's gender identity == Natani's gender identity, then I'm personally still gonna place my bets on that turning out to be closer to trans.

The thing about youngtani is that she 'died' before she ever entered puberty in full. She wouldn't have been able to pass as a male topless or anything, but her body is still very androgynous compared to what it would eventually become, and she's never been in heat -- so she never had to deal with either of Natani's two biggest complaints with the body.

Would that have mattered? Beats me, but I don't think it's an open-and-shut case.
Wobaku wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm Youngnatani explicitly stated she did not mind being a girl, this means she only started thinking of herself as a man and despising her body after the soulshatter. She is/was ''transgender'' because of dark magic, not a choice she made, and no one in the real world is transgender because of dark magic, so I don't think the word fits. But like you said, it's been purposefully left ambiguous.
To get into the semantics, I don't think there's anything about the word 'transgender' that doesn't apply, if Natani is in fact a trans-analogue. It's only the cause that would be weird, not the end result.

Or to put it another way; Keidran are neither real nor human, but that doesn't mean that the comic can't have anything to say about racism.

Wobaku wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm acting feminine around Keith, and even offering Keith a handful, things she would never have done at the beginning of the story.
The way I see it is that Natani is now basically behaving like you might expect a guy transformed into a girl to behave. This page comes to mind, both for the explanation in panel 4, and the memorable demonstration of the behavior :grin:

Plus, that shoe kinda fits. It's just that the transformation was mental, not physical.

Wobaku wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm In my opinion she'll definitely be content with being called ''she'' by the end of the story, but I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, the term transgender may have once fit her but it won't by the time her story is wrapped up.
The bets have been placed, but the wheel remains in motion :P
I think Youngtani's opinions and feelings are very much relevant, mostly because she is 1:1 what Natani was before her mind was damaged (or at least a part of her) and is in a unique position to dictate what was going on in Natani's mind back then, both to Natani and to the audience, better than anyone else.

Now as for the terminology, there is a bit of a distinction between the definition of transgender and what constitutes a transgender person. So while yes, Natani's mindset even in 2018 might pair up with the word transgender (what she's outwardly showing of that mindset, at least) she did not elect to be a different gender to what she was born with, for the reasons I laid out above, it seems she was 0% male before the soul-shatter (remember, masculine and male aren't the same thing) and after the link she was 100% male. It was something forced onto her, and to my mind a person is only transgender, or any similar term, if they have elected to be it - both fictional keidran and real humans experience racism, but only one experience black magic soul damage.

Now you could say that her connection to Zen has been removed/suppressed and she still views herself as a man, and you'd be correct, but Nat says herself that things won't change overnight, indeed she has been under Zen's influence for most of her life, and presumably all of puberty onwards, and she has only been free of the link for about 1 day (not counting her coma obviously) but her actions have changed a considerable amount already.
I think as time goes on she will likely drift away from a male personality (and towards a masculine female personality) once again, and I have my own reasons for thinking that her achieving real happiness is dependent on her making peace with the fact she's the female.
I also think tom has hinted where Natani's development is going, bottom left panel, and that ties in to what I've said above.

So yeah, you could say she may end up as little more than ''A man turned into a woman'' but I think that would be a cop out/cheap ending for her. And we may even have Clovis to fulfil that exact niche anyway - Assuming Clovis doesn't end up being a completely 1 dimensional evil-guy (like say, Eric :P ) that is.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#40 Post by amenon »

Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm I think Youngtani's opinions and feelings are very much relevant, mostly because she is 1:1 what Natani was before her mind was damaged (or at least a part of her) and is in a unique position to dictate what was going on in Natani's mind back then, both to Natani and to the audience, better than anyone else.
I have the 1:1 view of her, but others have been known to disagree, interpreting her as an aspect instead. A part of the whole that's been suppressed but trying to make itself heard, possibly in those occasional feminine thoughts. (I think that position just got somewhat harder with this page, both of them appearing to Zen, but Natani does call her a 'piece of myself', so there's that.)

The distinction matters in that if she is pretty much the actual complete pre-link Natani, then I see no earthly way in which you can combine the two, without killing both to create a Natani 3.0. (And killing two Natani is a pretty drastic move.)

Even if she is a fragment, I'm going to be super skeptical of any development between her and Natani that isn't, as so far, them interacting with each other just like anybody would. So her eventual exit stage left scene is something I'm very curious about. I'm hoping for a 'riding off to the sunset/bidding goodbye' variant, because I don't particularly want to see more dead Natani than absolutely necessary.

(And I don't particularly have anything against her sticking around for now, either; she's great :grin:)

Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm It was something forced onto her, and to my mind a person is only transgender, or any similar term, if they have elected to be it - both fictional keidran and real humans experience racism, but only one experience black magic soul damage.
Why does this distinction matter? I don't know if real-life being transgender is biological or psychological or sociological or some grab bag of each, but while you can have a nature vs nurture argument all day long, the thing both views agree on is that regardless of how you got there, you are who you are.

Are you saying Natani isn't a person at all, because of the imprint from when the link was formed? (And yes, that's a position that's been argued before. Really good thread on youngtani in general, with a lot of different takes represented.)

Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm I think as time goes on she will likely drift away from a male personality (and towards a masculine female personality) once again, and I have my own reasons for thinking that her achieving real happiness is dependent on her making peace with the fact she's the female.
I would be interested in hearing about those reasons, assuming they're not of a personal nature.

Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm I also think tom has hinted where Natani's development is going, bottom left panel, and that ties in to what I've said above.
I think it's much more natural to read the subtext in that line as making the exact opposite point; Natani is male, not by his choice, and has to deal with it. Those are the cards he's been dealt with, right down to standing there with Keith's cloak around his shoulders, and people now knowing about his ginormous wolf jubblies. (And the overt meaning, of course, has to do with basitin legal definitions.) [Sidebar: It would be interesting to know what Lynn's deal is, exactly -- born or made -- but it wouldn't matter for the subtext since he isn't addressing Natani.]

Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm And we may even have Clovis to fulfil that exact niche anyway - Assuming Clovis doesn't end up being a completely 1 dimensional evil-guy (like say, Eric :P ) that is.
Clovis does seem purely moustache-twirlingly evil at this point, but time will, of course, tell. And Eric is a quite thoroughly awful human being, but I don't think he's one dimensional, mostly because of the contradiction of his mostly jovial personality to the life he leads, and also how he views Kat vs how he views other Keidran. (And on a more meta level, I think just the sheer fact that there's a rapist slaver who's helpful to the main characters raises interesting questions for the narrative, how people view it, and where if anywhere it's going. Though Trace does provide a lot of that by himself, too, so I'm not sure how necessary Eric is for those purposes.)
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#41 Post by Wobaku »

amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm
Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm I think Youngtani's opinions and feelings are very much relevant, mostly because she is 1:1 what Natani was before her mind was damaged (or at least a part of her) and is in a unique position to dictate what was going on in Natani's mind back then, both to Natani and to the audience, better than anyone else.
I have the 1:1 view of her, but others have been known to disagree, interpreting her as an aspect instead. A part of the whole that's been suppressed but trying to make itself heard, possibly in those occasional feminine thoughts. (I think that position just got somewhat harder with this page, both of them appearing to Zen, but Natani does call her a 'piece of myself', so there's that.)

The distinction matters in that if she is pretty much the actual complete pre-link Natani, then I see no earthly way in which you can combine the two, without killing both to create a Natani 3.0. (And killing two Natani is a pretty drastic move.)

Even if she is a fragment, I'm going to be super skeptical of any development between her and Natani that isn't, as so far, them interacting with each other just like anybody would. So her eventual exit stage left scene is something I'm very curious about. I'm hoping for a 'riding off to the sunset/bidding goodbye' variant, because I don't particularly want to see more dead Natani than absolutely necessary.

(And I don't particularly have anything against her sticking around for now, either; she's great :grin:)
I think she is 1:1 who Natani was because she is very knowledgeable about Natani's feelings and likes, and the logic behind her decisions back then, as well as knowing how the link altered these things. So while we can't know for sure that she is the entire pre-link Natani, to me she is as close as makes no difference.

I view her as a very self aware/knowledgeable variant of pre-link Natani, but I think that her and our Natani ''fusing'' their personalities would be a very cheap move on Tom's part. And also unnecessary.

And yeah, she is great, cute, serves a purpose, and pushes the envelope just the right amount, unlike the way characters like karen, flora or kat take it too far.
amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm
Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm It was something forced onto her, and to my mind a person is only transgender, or any similar term, if they have elected to be it - both fictional keidran and real humans experience racism, but only one experience black magic soul damage.
Why does this distinction matter? I don't know if real-life being transgender is biological or psychological or sociological or some grab bag of each, but while you can have a nature vs nurture argument all day long, the thing both views agree on is that regardless of how you got there, you are who you are.

Are you saying Natani isn't a person at all, because of the imprint from when the link was formed? (And yes, that's a position that's been argued before. Really good thread on youngtani in general, with a lot of different takes represented.)
It matters for two reasons, one because she hasn't ''got there'' yet, she is still progressing, and more importantly, because I honestly do not think that deep down Natani has this ''i'm definitely a man'' mentality, to elaborate, I believe there is a part of Natani's personality she suppresses, whether she realises it or not, that is more laid back, playful and feminine that her usual outward demeanour, (note that nothing in this paragraph is about youngtani, just our Natani) that gives her urges to do things like act nurturing towards Keith when he's hurt, that entire night in the mansion where she did the voice, and make her want to wear girly things like lingerie or Adelaide's dress, this is probably the best example, as she has her fantasy then immediately buries it under ''No no no no, that's not me!''

I did not mean to imply current Natani is ''not a person'', or a pseudo copy of Zen, or anything else the people in that thread were implying. The way I see it, Zen's influence merely coloured some of Natani's memories and emotions, but not all of them or even a majority, Youngtani says a ''lot of blanks'' had to be filled in, and years before that when the link is explained it's said that parts of Natani were gone(and one of those parts was her sense of gender), but it isn't said anywhere that the majority of her is gone.

So I am of the opinion that she still has plenty of childhood/pre link memories that Zen/the link haven't altered at all, it's not like they were spending every second of every day together as kids.
Zen had his influence on her yes, but simply the fact that she turned out to have a different mindset than Zen should prove beyond any doubt she is first and foremost her own person. To add, Zen may have had his influence on her, but Natani is the one who chose how to react to this influence, Zen was her crutch for many years, but the point of the mindscape was her learning to walk without that crutch, so to say, as well as Youngtani reminding Natani that she should neither depend on Zen nor give him credit/blame him for who Natani ended up being, because she isn't a female Zen, she's Natani. It was not about Natani turning back into Youngtani.
amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm
Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm I think as time goes on she will likely drift away from a male personality (and towards a masculine female personality) once again, and I have my own reasons for thinking that her achieving real happiness is dependent on her making peace with the fact she's female.
I would be interested in hearing about those reasons, assuming they're not of a personal nature.
In my opinion, as long as she has a male mentality she is going to want a male body, that means there will always be this unfulfillable desire in the back of her mind to have something she can't have, it will make her bitter over her lot in life, and it might even turn to jealousy towards Keith down the road. The physical part of any relationship, any encounter, will always be second fiddle to what she could/''should'' have had if she was born into the ''right'' body.
amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm
Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm I also think tom has hinted where Natani's development is going, bottom left panel, and that ties in to what I've said above.
I think it's much more natural to read the subtext in that line as making the exact opposite point; Natani is male, not by his choice, and has to deal with it. Those are the cards he's been dealt with, right down to standing there with Keith's cloak around his shoulders, and people now knowing about his ginormous wolf jubblies. (And the overt meaning, of course, has to do with basitin legal definitions.) [Sidebar: It would be interesting to know what Lynn's deal is, exactly -- born or made -- but it wouldn't matter for the subtext since he isn't addressing Natani.]
I can't agree, Lynn had been calling Natani female that very page, and the impression I get is that she must learn to deal with her femininity, why would she need to deal with her masculinity when she already thinks of herself as a man? The only way she could do that is, reduce/mitigate how much she views herself as a man, i.e. become more feminine.
I also think it's clear Lynn is a basically the equivalent of a eunuch so I would cast my vote in the ''Made'' pool.
amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm
Wobaku wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm And we may even have Clovis to fulfil that exact niche anyway - Assuming Clovis doesn't end up being a completely 1 dimensional evil-guy (like say, Eric :P ) that is.
Clovis does seem purely moustache-twirlingly evil at this point, but time will, of course, tell. And Eric is a quite thoroughly awful human being, but I don't think he's one dimensional, mostly because of the contradiction of his mostly jovial personality to the life he leads, and also how he views Kat vs how he views other Keidran. (And on a more meta level, I think just the sheer fact that there's a rapist slaver who's helpful to the main characters raises interesting questions for the narrative, how people view it, and where if anywhere it's going. Though Trace does provide a lot of that by himself, too, so I'm not sure how necessary Eric is for those purposes.)
For Clovis, while he/she just seems like a typical greedy badguy at the moment, I think has shown a small amount of potential for characterisation and growth, and even that some may have happened between TDM and now - namely, that he identified with his wolf half in TDM to the point of denying his fox half even existed, and was plotting on throwing Zen & Natani under the bus despite them presumably being amongst his most loyal* followers - To now identifying with his fox half and even seemingly having a friendship with one of his underlings (Carver, a fox no less) to the extent Carver had a pet name for him. That last part is assuming of course Carver wasn't being mocking when he said ''Clovy'' but I don't feel he was. I also feel Clovis will end up paralleling Natani in a neat way.
[*Loyal is probably not the right word, but I think they were unlikely to betray him out of a mixture of gratitude for saving Natani, and fear over what he'd do if they did since he was so close to their minds and souls at any given time, mostly the fear]

The silly emoticon meant I wasn't being fully serious, I don't really think he's an especially 1d character, I was partly poking fun at the fact you could argue Eric is even worse than Clovis, because while Clovis is flat out stated to be a rapist who leads and enables other rapists, at least he doesn't make his victims prisoners within their own minds the way a human slaver does.
Anyway, Tom seems to be half committed to doing some kind of ''redemption'' arc with Eric, if his last few interactions with Mike & Evals are anything to go off, in order to make Eric a less offensive character.
And while we're on this grim topic, I can actually see Eric, due to his perversion and general mindset/uncaring attitude, actually convincing himself that he isn't a rapist, and that his slaves are willing to sleep with him of their own accord, not because of their Compulsion spells/Collars/The inherent power difference between master and slave.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#42 Post by Hulk10 »

We will have to wait and see.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#43 Post by amenon »

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am It matters for two reasons, one because she hasn't ''got there'' yet, she is still progressing, and more importantly, because I honestly do not think that deep down Natani has this ''i'm definitely a man'' mentality, to elaborate, I believe there is a part of Natani's personality she suppresses, whether she realises it or not, that is more laid back, playful and feminine that her usual outward demeanour, (note that nothing in this paragraph is about youngtani, just our Natani) that gives her urges to do things like act nurturing towards Keith when he's hurt, that entire night in the mansion where she did the voice, and make her want to wear girly things like lingerie or Adelaide's dress, this is probably the best example, as she has her fantasy then immediately buries it under ''No no no no, that's not me!''
That's a credible read, and I certainly do expect Natani to go with more of those feminine impulses in the future, rather than always fighting them, but I don't see him shifting on the gender issue. I guess you could say that I think if that was going to happen, it would have happened already.

I could see it still being impending too, but my best guess is against.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I did not mean to imply current Natani is ''not a person'', or a pseudo copy of Zen, or anything else the people in that thread were implying. The way I see it, Zen's influence merely coloured some of Natani's memories and emotions, but not all of them or even a majority, Youngtani says a ''lot of blanks'' had to be filled in, and years before that when the link is explained it's said that parts of Natani were gone(and one of those parts was her sense of gender), but it isn't said anywhere that the majority of her is gone.

So I am of the opinion that she still has plenty of childhood/pre link memories that Zen/the link haven't altered at all, it's not like they were spending every second of every day together as kids.
One thing that I absolutely agree with Kryss on; what Natani lost was far too big to be written off. She either died, lost effectively all her memories, or both. His entire sense of self got re-interpreted through Zen's memories. And Zen, unfortunately, had a grotesquely flawed view of who his sister was.

Which servers to further remind me that that's the big open question between them right now; how will the both of them deal with that knowledge? Is Natani going to call him out? How will Zen process having subjected Natani to years of needless self-doubt and struggle, all because of his own garbage idiot-child ego? There's a near-nuclear amount of irony in that it was more or less his desire to protect her that did the damage.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am Zen had his influence on her yes, but simply the fact that she turned out to have a different mindset than Zen should prove beyond any doubt she is first and foremost her own person. To add, Zen may have had his influence on her, but Natani is the one who chose how to react to this influence, Zen was her crutch for many years, but the point of the mindscape was her learning to walk without that crutch, so to say, as well as Youngtani reminding Natani that she should neither depend on Zen nor give him credit/blame him for who Natani ended up being, because she isn't a female Zen, she's Natani. It was not about Natani turning back into Youngtani.
We disagree on the implications re: memory, but this I can all agree on.

Though I would modify the crutch analogy to say that Zen was a cast. Immediately useful, but ultimately just hampering and paralyzing.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am In my opinion, as long as she has a male mentality she is going to want a male body, that means there will always be this unfulfillable desire in the back of her mind to have something she can't have, it will make her bitter over her lot in life, and it might even turn to jealousy towards Keith down the road. The physical part of any relationship, any encounter, will always be second fiddle to what she could/''should'' have had if she was born into the ''right'' body.
I think that, while this is a reasonable read, it's an unnecessarily pessimistic one. Continuing to treat Natani as a trans-analogue, transitioning isn't something every trans person can or indeed even wants to do. Sure, Natani may never have everything he wants, but who does? Happiness is not precluded.

And further, even if your read is correct, it only invites the question of actually getting a male body, something that could certainly be in play in this setting, especially now that Clovis is in the picture. An additional bonus there is that it would raise very interesting questions for Natani's and Keith's relationship. Say, for example, that Natani has to make a one-off choice, no takebacks? I would love to see those scenes.

(Though if Carver's thingamabob is of that nature, then it would more likely to be an on/off thing. Which would also be interesting, if not quite so dramatic.)

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I can't agree, Lynn had been calling Natani female that very page, and the impression I get is that she must learn to deal with her femininity, why would she need to deal with her masculinity when she already thinks of herself as a man? The only way she could do that is, reduce/mitigate how much she views herself as a man, i.e. become more feminine.
Not to deal with his masculinity, but to deal with being male in a female body.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I also think it's clear Lynn is a basically the equivalent of a eunuch so I would cast my vote in the ''Made'' pool.
I think I lean that way as well, but I'm all questions and no answers when it comes to method and selection. It's supposed to be a very meritocratic society, so...

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am The silly emoticon meant I wasn't being fully serious, I don't really think he's an especially 1d character, I was partly poking fun at the fact you could argue Eric is even worse than Clovis, because while Clovis is flat out stated to be a rapist who leads and enables other rapists, at least he doesn't make his victims prisoners within their own minds the way a human slaver does.
Though to be fair, that seems to be because he likes it when they struggle :/

I don't think there's enough info to say who's worse between Eric and Clovis. Trace has the #1 spot, though, at least out of named characters. (Whoever's leading the wolves isn't coming off great either. Nor is Brahn.

Hmm... okay, I guess Brahn could actually be #1 by now. The war was Trace's plan, but it was probably Brahn who set it in motion, and it's likely it's already resulted in more death than Trace dealt.)

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am Anyway, Tom seems to be half committed to doing some kind of ''redemption'' arc with Eric, if his last few interactions with Mike & Evals are anything to go off, in order to make Eric a less offensive character.
If that's the angle, then there's quite a bit of work to do. Though I did enjoy the irony of him (at least figuratively, probably literally) paying them with money he made from selling them.

If he'd gotten half a clue by now and was making any kind of serious effort, he would have given them the full amount of their sale.

(For the record, I think it was a pretty clever calculated move, to kinda get off on a 'good foot' instead of having to worry about Evals throwing him off a balcony. [Mike was always gonna be cool anyway.])

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am And while we're on the topic, I can actually see Eric, due to his perversion and general mindset/uncaring attitude, actually convincing himself that he isn't a rapist, and that his slaves are willing to sleep with him of their own accord, not because of their Compulsion spells/Collars/The inherent power difference between master and slave.
Oh, for sure. I don't give him remotely enough credit to think he'd be able or interested to face the reality of what he is and what he's done.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#44 Post by Hulk10 »

amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am It matters for two reasons, one because she hasn't ''got there'' yet, she is still progressing, and more importantly, because I honestly do not think that deep down Natani has this ''i'm definitely a man'' mentality, to elaborate, I believe there is a part of Natani's personality she suppresses, whether she realises it or not, that is more laid back, playful and feminine that her usual outward demeanour, (note that nothing in this paragraph is about youngtani, just our Natani) that gives her urges to do things like act nurturing towards Keith when he's hurt, that entire night in the mansion where she did the voice, and make her want to wear girly things like lingerie or Adelaide's dress, this is probably the best example, as she has her fantasy then immediately buries it under ''No no no no, that's not me!''
That's a credible read, and I certainly do expect Natani to go with more of those feminine impulses in the future, rather than always fighting them, but I don't see him shifting on the gender issue. I guess you could say that I think if that was going to happen, it would have happened already.

I could see it still being impending too, but my best guess is against.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I did not mean to imply current Natani is ''not a person'', or a pseudo copy of Zen, or anything else the people in that thread were implying. The way I see it, Zen's influence merely coloured some of Natani's memories and emotions, but not all of them or even a majority, Youngtani says a ''lot of blanks'' had to be filled in, and years before that when the link is explained it's said that parts of Natani were gone(and one of those parts was her sense of gender), but it isn't said anywhere that the majority of her is gone.

So I am of the opinion that she still has plenty of childhood/pre link memories that Zen/the link haven't altered at all, it's not like they were spending every second of every day together as kids.
One thing that I absolutely agree with Kryss on; what Natani lost was far too big to be written off. She either died, lost effectively all her memories, or both. His entire sense of self got re-interpreted through Zen's memories. And Zen, unfortunately, had a grotesquely flawed view of who his sister was.

Which servers to further remind me that that's the big open question between them right now; how will the both of them deal with that knowledge? Is Natani going to call him out? How will Zen process having subjected Natani to years of needless self-doubt and struggle, all because of his own garbage idiot-child ego? There's a near-nuclear amount of irony in that it was more or less his desire to protect her that did the damage.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am Zen had his influence on her yes, but simply the fact that she turned out to have a different mindset than Zen should prove beyond any doubt she is first and foremost her own person. To add, Zen may have had his influence on her, but Natani is the one who chose how to react to this influence, Zen was her crutch for many years, but the point of the mindscape was her learning to walk without that crutch, so to say, as well as Youngtani reminding Natani that she should neither depend on Zen nor give him credit/blame him for who Natani ended up being, because she isn't a female Zen, she's Natani. It was not about Natani turning back into Youngtani.
We disagree on the implications re: memory, but this I can all agree on.

Though I would modify the crutch analogy to say that Zen was a cast. Immediately useful, but ultimately just hampering and paralyzing.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am In my opinion, as long as she has a male mentality she is going to want a male body, that means there will always be this unfulfillable desire in the back of her mind to have something she can't have, it will make her bitter over her lot in life, and it might even turn to jealousy towards Keith down the road. The physical part of any relationship, any encounter, will always be second fiddle to what she could/''should'' have had if she was born into the ''right'' body.
I think that, while this is a reasonable read, it's an unnecessarily pessimistic one. Continuing to treat Natani as a trans-analogue, transitioning isn't something every trans person can or indeed even wants to do. Sure, Natani may never have everything he wants, but who does? Happiness is not precluded.

And further, even if your read is correct, it only invites the question of actually getting a male body, something that could certainly be in play in this setting, especially now that Clovis is in the picture. An additional bonus there is that it would raise very interesting questions for Natani's and Keith's relationship. Say, for example, that Natani has to make a one-off choice, no takebacks? I would love to see those scenes.

(Though if Carver's thingamabob is of that nature, then it would more likely to be an on/off thing. Which would also be interesting, if not quite so dramatic.)

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I can't agree, Lynn had been calling Natani female that very page, and the impression I get is that she must learn to deal with her femininity, why would she need to deal with her masculinity when she already thinks of herself as a man? The only way she could do that is, reduce/mitigate how much she views herself as a man, i.e. become more feminine.
Not to deal with his masculinity, but to deal with being male in a female body.

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I also think it's clear Lynn is a basically the equivalent of a eunuch so I would cast my vote in the ''Made'' pool.
I think I lean that way as well, but I'm all questions and no answers when it comes to method and selection. It's supposed to be a very meritocratic society, so...

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am The silly emoticon meant I wasn't being fully serious, I don't really think he's an especially 1d character, I was partly poking fun at the fact you could argue Eric is even worse than Clovis, because while Clovis is flat out stated to be a rapist who leads and enables other rapists, at least he doesn't make his victims prisoners within their own minds the way a human slaver does.
Though to be fair, that seems to be because he likes it when they struggle :/

I don't think there's enough info to say who's worse between Eric and Clovis. Trace has the #1 spot, though, at least out of named characters. (Whoever's leading the wolves isn't coming off great either. Nor is Brahn.

Hmm... okay, I guess Brahn could actually be #1 by now. The war was Trace's plan, but it was probably Brahn who set it in motion, and it's likely it's already resulted in more death than Trace dealt.)

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am Anyway, Tom seems to be half committed to doing some kind of ''redemption'' arc with Eric, if his last few interactions with Mike & Evals are anything to go off, in order to make Eric a less offensive character.
If that's the angle, then there's quite a bit of work to do. Though I did enjoy the irony of him (at least figuratively, probably literally) paying them with money he made from selling them.

If he'd gotten half a clue by now and was making any kind of serious effort, he would have given them the full amount of their sale.

(For the record, I think it was a pretty clever calculated move, to kinda get off on a 'good foot' instead of having to worry about Evals throwing him off a balcony. [Mike was always gonna be cool anyway.])

Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am And while we're on the topic, I can actually see Eric, due to his perversion and general mindset/uncaring attitude, actually convincing himself that he isn't a rapist, and that his slaves are willing to sleep with him of their own accord, not because of their Compulsion spells/Collars/The inherent power difference between master and slave.
Oh, for sure. I don't give him remotely enough credit to think he'd be able or interested to face the reality of what he is and what he's done.
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#45 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 am
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
I think they were not saying that Eric is intellectually incapable of understanding the heinousness of his actions. But that he is so far down the gutter he is morally incapable of facing his true nature. That is: he convinced himself he is an all-around nice guy who never did anything wrong.
Unlike say Kei, who has shown remorse for slaving Flora.
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