Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

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Wobaku
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#46 Post by Wobaku »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 am
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
I think they were not saying that Eric is intellectually incapable of understanding the heinousness of his actions. But that he is so far down the gutter he is morally incapable of facing his true nature. That is: he convinced himself he is an all-around nice guy who never did anything wrong.
Unlike say Kei, who has shown remorse for slaving Flora.
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 am
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
Didn't mean to imply he wasn't intelligent enough, what I meant was, because of his personality and total lack of respect for any boundaries (Repeatedly asking Flora to strip/pose for him, touching her, and making lewd comments about her body when she clearly wasn't willing or comfortable, for example.) He just wouldn't see anything wrong with quote making use of his slaves.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#47 Post by Wobaku »

amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am It matters for two reasons, one because she hasn't ''got there'' yet, she is still progressing, and more importantly, because I honestly do not think that deep down Natani has this ''i'm definitely a man'' mentality, to elaborate, I believe there is a part of Natani's personality she suppresses, whether she realises it or not, that is more laid back, playful and feminine that her usual outward demeanour, (note that nothing in this paragraph is about youngtani, just our Natani) that gives her urges to do things like act nurturing towards Keith when he's hurt, that entire night in the mansion where she did the voice, and make her want to wear girly things like lingerie or Adelaide's dress, this is probably the best example, as she has her fantasy then immediately buries it under ''No no no no, that's not me!''
That's a credible read, and I certainly do expect Natani to go with more of those feminine impulses in the future, rather than always fighting them, but I don't see him shifting on the gender issue. I guess you could say that I think if that was going to happen, it would have happened already.

I could see it still being impending too, but my best guess is against.
We have different opinions on Natani's final destination in terms of her gender, and there isn't really any point debating it.
As far as timescales go though, like I said before Natani herself states things aren't going to change overnight, and it has been just a single day since her encounter with Youngnat.
amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I did not mean to imply current Natani is ''not a person'', or a pseudo copy of Zen, or anything else the people in that thread were implying. The way I see it, Zen's influence merely coloured some of Natani's memories and emotions, but not all of them or even a majority, Youngtani says a ''lot of blanks'' had to be filled in, and years before that when the link is explained it's said that parts of Natani were gone(and one of those parts was her sense of gender), but it isn't said anywhere that the majority of her is gone.

So I am of the opinion that she still has plenty of childhood/pre link memories that Zen/the link haven't altered at all, it's not like they were spending every second of every day together as kids.
One thing that I absolutely agree with Kryss on; what Natani lost was far too big to be written off. She either died, lost effectively all her memories, or both. His entire sense of self got re-interpreted through Zen's memories. And Zen, unfortunately, had a grotesquely flawed view of who his sister was.

Which servers to further remind me that that's the big open question between them right now; how will the both of them deal with that knowledge? Is Natani going to call him out? How will Zen process having subjected Natani to years of needless self-doubt and struggle, all because of his own garbage idiot-child ego? There's a near-nuclear amount of irony in that it was more or less his desire to protect her that did the damage.
I didn't mean to imply her loss can be handwaved, I just meant that she did not lose her identity from before the link, merely that it got tainted by Zen's perception. To what extent is up to us to decide.
In the quote box below, which I won't be responding to separately, you say you agree with me that Natani is her own person, not someone shaped by Zen, so I find your claim here that she died/ceased being herself contradictory.
I think you are giving too much credit/blame to Zen for shaping Natani, just like Natani herself was, and YoungNat corrects her on this. The entire point of the mindscape was to make Natani realise that she isn't who she is because of Zen, but because of herself. Youngnat also says this herself on that page.

Also, personally I don't believe anything implies that Zen went on viewing Natani as weak&helpless for years, just when she genuinely was young and afraid.
I view the mind-copying part of the link as a one time thing, and when Natani was going through it (the linking procedure), she again legitimately was reliant on zen - she was half dead, weaker than Zen, and about the same age as Maeve is now. It was Zen's responsibility to take care of his helpless little sister, and what he was feeling at the time got copied over and ''burned into'' Natani. I don't believe he went on viewing her as weak and helpless for any length of time, and I don't think it would have altered Natani's opinions of herself if he did either way.

Let me ask you this, if Zen has gone on viewing Natani as his weak baby sister, and that was the cause of all her inner turmoil, and Zen was to die - Do you think that Natani would eventually stop viewing women as weak, etc etc purely Because of his removal from her mind? To me, the answer is no, because the idea of women being weak/Natani being helpless isn't something that was mentally reinforced to her day after day, it's an opinion she has because it got copied over once when the link was first made.

As I pointed out on another discussion, even if your opinions are correct I don't think Zen could have even been aware that Natani viewed herself as especially weak/inferior. And even if he suspected something was up, he probably wouldn't have pried out of respect for her.

So the bottom line is, I don't think that being linked to Zen fundamentally changed who Natani was (with the exception of her becoming ''male'') and I also believe that if the soulshatter never happened Natani would still have grown into a person very similar to who we have now. But we don't have to agree.
amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am Zen had his influence on her yes, but simply the fact that she turned out to have a different mindset than Zen should prove beyond any doubt she is first and foremost her own person. To add, Zen may have had his influence on her, but Natani is the one who chose how to react to this influence, Zen was her crutch for many years, but the point of the mindscape was her learning to walk without that crutch, so to say, as well as Youngtani reminding Natani that she should neither depend on Zen nor give him credit/blame him for who Natani ended up being, because she isn't a female Zen, she's Natani. It was not about Natani turning back into Youngtani.
We disagree on the implications re: memory, but this I can all agree on.

Though I would modify the crutch analogy to say that Zen was a cast. Immediately useful, but ultimately just hampering and paralyzing.

amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am In my opinion, as long as she has a male mentality she is going to want a male body, that means there will always be this unfulfillable desire in the back of her mind to have something she can't have, it will make her bitter over her lot in life, and it might even turn to jealousy towards Keith down the road. The physical part of any relationship, any encounter, will always be second fiddle to what she could/''should'' have had if she was born into the ''right'' body.
I think that, while this is a reasonable read, it's an unnecessarily pessimistic one. Continuing to treat Natani as a trans-analogue, transitioning isn't something every trans person can or indeed even wants to do. Sure, Natani may never have everything he wants, but who does? Happiness is not precluded.

And further, even if your read is correct, it only invites the question of actually getting a male body, something that could certainly be in play in this setting, especially now that Clovis is in the picture. An additional bonus there is that it would raise very interesting questions for Natani's and Keith's relationship. Say, for example, that Natani has to make a one-off choice, no takebacks? I would love to see those scenes.

(Though if Carver's thingamabob is of that nature, then it would more likely to be an on/off thing. Which would also be interesting, if not quite so dramatic.)
The difference is that her desire to have a different body can't be handwaved as ''some thing she'd rather have'' but possibly The thing she most desires, besides her boyfriend I guess.
But anyway, at the moment her being a Man is the core of who she is, and her body is the complete antithesis to that self-image. And sure she says it's ''not that bad'' to be stuck with her current body in the mansion, but I think she'd still vastly prefer to have a different one. So yeah, she would have a constant weight on her, her desire to be someone else. And every time she looked in a mirror or otherwise got reminded of what she looked like, it would be a reminder of just how inadequate her current situation is. And I view that as a dealbreaker, I certainly wouldn't want live like that any way.

Gonna assume you mean Clovis' dragon gem? If so I agree it's probably part of his plan to reclaim his old body, and I would love to see the scenario you described play out, even if it runs the risk of shattering my opinions of Natani, depending on what she chooses.
amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I can't agree, Lynn had been calling Natani female that very page, and the impression I get is that she must learn to deal with her femininity, why would she need to deal with her masculinity when she already thinks of herself as a man? The only way she could do that is, reduce/mitigate how much she views herself as a man, i.e. become more feminine.
Not to deal with his masculinity, but to deal with being male in a female body.
Ah, well, that has been where we fundamentally disagree on Natani, I believe her storyline can/will be be summarised as, in a very oversimplified way:
''Natani comes to terms with being a woman, and falls in love with Keith''
Whereas I believe you would lean more to: ''Natani comes to terms with having a woman's body, and falls in love with Keith''
amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am I also think it's clear Lynn is a basically the equivalent of a eunuch so I would cast my vote in the ''Made'' pool.
I think I lean that way as well, but I'm all questions and no answers when it comes to method and selection. It's supposed to be a very meritocratic society, so...
They're probably selected at an early age, and it has little to do with their perceived ''worth''. I can't imagine Lynn being a criminal or anything like that, nor do I want to imagine what he might have done to deserve it.
amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am The silly emoticon meant I wasn't being fully serious, I don't really think he's an especially 1d character, I was partly poking fun at the fact you could argue Eric is even worse than Clovis, because while Clovis is flat out stated to be a rapist who leads and enables other rapists, at least he doesn't make his victims prisoners within their own minds the way a human slaver does.
Though to be fair, that seems to be because he likes it when they struggle :/

I don't think there's enough info to say who's worse between Eric and Clovis. Trace has the #1 spot, though, at least out of named characters. (Whoever's leading the wolves isn't coming off great either. Nor is Brahn.
Yeah he definitely says something along the lines of ''I like them feisty'' in the context of sex. Still, I don't believe he makes any significant use of control magic or collars - he seems to have gotten off on proving his dominance/superiority, and using magic for that might seem like cheating. He didn't take control of Natani in TDM until his task depended on it, and I think if he was a fan of control magic he would have taken control earlier to make sure she didn't mess up, or something along those lines.

Unfortunately Tom seems to be trying to retcon Evil-Trace into a less despicable character in order to save face. (when we first got a flashback of the wolves who captured Laura, which trace Killed, there are what appears to be women and what are definitely children amongst the victims, but later on this was retconned into them being a band of mercenaries/slavers) With how much Tom is playing it safe/mellowed out over the last few years, it wouldn't surprise me if it's clarified Trace only killed/enslaved soldiers and let the women and children go free. (Not defending Trace or anything, just typing my thoughts.)
amenon wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Wobaku wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:08 am Anyway, Tom seems to be half committed to doing some kind of ''redemption'' arc with Eric, if his last few interactions with Mike & Evals are anything to go off, in order to make Eric a less offensive character.
If that's the angle, then there's quite a bit of work to do. Though I did enjoy the irony of him (at least figuratively, probably literally) paying them with money he made from selling them.

If he'd gotten half a clue by now and was making any kind of serious effort, he would have given them the full amount of their sale.

(For the record, I think it was a pretty clever calculated move, to kinda get off on a 'good foot' instead of having to worry about Evals throwing him off a balcony. [Mike was always gonna be cool anyway.])
Mike seems to have a bit of Stockholm syndrome towards his life as slave yes, he even said once he doesn't think he could survive in another environment. But perhaps that should just be taken literally, he physically doesn't know how to survive without having some kind of roof and food supplied for him.

I had a similar scenario in mind for what Evals should have done after getting his freedom, but involving a long time inside a headlock, less noticeable.
More seriously I found it kind of disappointing Evals (and Mike) just immediately took his leave of the whole thing after what Eric has put him through, after being one of the only characters to stand up to/point out his evil before*. Perhaps his only concern was getting away from humanity, or perhaps he has a bit of a forgiving personality deep down, not really enough spotlight on him to form a full opinion.
*(besides Kat I guess, but I find her kind of morally ugly too, and a detriment to the story, but I'll withhold ultimate judgement on her until she gets some development)

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#48 Post by Warrl »

Mike seems to have a bit of Stockholm syndrome towards his life as slave yes, he even said once he doesn't think he could survive in another environment. But perhaps that should just be taken literally, he physically doesn't know how to survive without having some kind of roof and food supplied for him.
Mike was pretty explicit. The culture that he grew up in, the only culture he knows, is the culture of the human realm. He knows all the concepts behind working for a wage and buying food and shelter. He speaks (and understands) human fluently, probably more fluently than he speaks keidran - aside from any "accent" imposed by his differently-shaped vocal apparatus, which issue is totally glossed over in this and most other furry comics. He has no idea how to live in the wild, how to hunt, how to build decent shelter from wild materials. (He may also have misconceptions about precisely how comparatively primitive "wild"-keidran culture is).

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#49 Post by amenon »

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am I didn't mean to imply her loss can be handwaved, I just meant that she did not lose her identity from before the link, merely that it got tainted by Zen's perception. To what extent is up to us to decide.
In the quote box below, which I won't be responding to separately, you say you agree with me that Natani is her own person, not someone shaped by Zen, so I find your claim here that she died/ceased being herself contradictory.
I've been arguing for a pretty long time (before the mindscape) that Natani died when Issac's spell hit her, and that we've had a Natani 2.0 ever since. Not completely different, and in the same body, but a distinct person. That's still more or less my position, even though it now seems like the original Natani also survived, at least in some form.

But my point is simply that they're not one and the same, and I think they're different enough that even if they were working with the same set of experiences, they'd be distinguishable. (You say below 'very similar'. I'm not sure about the very, but similar seems safe to say.)

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Also, personally I don't believe anything implies that Zen went on viewing Natani as weak&helpless for years, just when she genuinely was young and afraid.
He went at least from there to the time of the link, which I think is more than a year, and includes Natani being badass enough to join him in the guild. (Which he put down to 'desperation'.) If he hadn't, we wouldn't have (most of) this mess.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am I view the mind-copying part of the link as a one time thing, and when Natani was going through it (the linking procedure), she again legitimately was reliant on zen - she was half dead, weaker than Zen, and about the same age as Maeve is now. It was Zen's responsibility to take care of his helpless little sister, and what he was feeling at the time got copied over and ''burned into'' Natani. I don't believe he went on viewing her as weak and helpless for any length of time, and I don't think it would have altered Natani's opinions of herself if he did either way.
That's a good point about Zen's state of mind during the formation of the link itself, but I don't think that played a huge part, simply because the memory that's always keyed to the concept of 'weak little girl' is the older one of them having just lost their parents.


Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Let me ask you this, if Zen has gone on viewing Natani as his weak baby sister, and that was the cause of all her inner turmoil, and Zen was to die - Do you think that Natani would eventually stop viewing women as weak, etc etc purely Because of his removal from her mind? To me, the answer is no, because the idea of women being weak/Natani being helpless isn't something that was mentally reinforced to her day after day, it's an opinion she has because it got copied over once when the link was first made.
The cause of that inner turmoil is the original copied impression. At that point, it became primarily Natani's problem. Though, if Zen has all along been being as much of a [censored] to him as we've seen him be during the Keith era, needling him any time he felt something they saw as feminine, that won't exactly have helped.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am As I pointed out on another discussion, even if your opinions are correct I don't think Zen could have even been aware that Natani viewed herself as especially weak/inferior. And even if he suspected something was up, he probably wouldn't have pried out of respect for her.
Natani didn't view, in your words, herself as weak -- he viewed youngtani as weak. Natani was convinced that he was weak before the link, because that was Zen's impression of who he had been. And since Natani after the link knew he wasn't weak, he attributed that strength incorrectly to Zen, and ever since lived terrified of sliding back to who he used to be. Except that person only ever existed in his brother's idiot teenage head, from where they got copied into Natani's idiot teenage head, and then remained in both of their idiot adult heads until youngtani came along and set the record straight.

(Though I guess 'teenage' doesn't exactly work with keidran, does it?)

Anyway, Zen cannot possibly have been unaware of Natani's reaction to Zen's memories of him/her. It was absolutely formative.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am So the bottom line is, I don't think that being linked to Zen fundamentally changed who Natani was (with the exception of her becoming ''male'') and I also believe that if the soulshatter never happened Natani would still have grown into a person very similar to who we have now. But we don't have to agree.
Possibly quite similar, yes. At a guess, more open and confident, as we're seeing from youngtani, and also now from Natani. That is indeed the lesson of the mindscape; the link didn't change nearly as much as Natani thought it did. It's just that the 'before' image was broken.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am The difference is that her desire to have a different body can't be handwaved as ''some thing she'd rather have'' but possibly The thing she most desires, besides her boyfriend I guess.
But anyway, at the moment her being a Man is the core of who she is, and her body is the complete antithesis to that self-image. And sure she says it's ''not that bad'' to be stuck with her current body in the mansion, but I think she'd still vastly prefer to have a different one. So yeah, she would have a constant weight on her, her desire to be someone else. And every time she looked in a mirror or otherwise got reminded of what she looked like, it would be a reminder of just how inadequate her current situation is. And I view that as a dealbreaker, I certainly wouldn't want live like that any way.
Well hey, hooray for being cis and all that, and I certainly don't want to downplay the challenges inherent in being trans, but categorically consigning Natani (or indeed, any non-transitioning trans person) to misery is going way too far. Wait and see, and maybe you'll be surprised.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Gonna assume you mean Clovis' dragon gem? If so I agree it's probably part of his plan to reclaim his old body, and I would love to see the scenario you described play out, even if it runs the risk of shattering my opinions of Natani, depending on what she chooses.
Ah, yes, Clovis, derp. Too many smug orange C-named people...

And hey! We've found common ground :grin:

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Ah, well, that has been where we fundamentally disagree on Natani, I believe her storyline can/will be be summarised as, in a very oversimplified way:
''Natani comes to terms with being a woman, and falls in love with Keith''
Whereas I believe you would lean more to: ''Natani comes to terms with having a woman's body, and falls in love with Keith''
We can further simplify it by taking the Keith part out as redundant. He's in love with him already anyway :P

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am They're probably selected at an early age, and it has little to do with their perceived ''worth''. I can't imagine Lynn being a criminal or anything like that, nor do I want to imagine what he might have done to deserve it.
Well, there's always the theory that he had sex with King Adelaide and was never the same again. (I think that was Dadrobit's?)

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Unfortunately Tom seems to be trying to retcon Evil-Trace into a less despicable character in order to save face. (when we first got a flashback of the wolves who captured Laura, which trace Killed, there are what appears to be women and what are definitely children amongst the victims, but later on this was retconned into them being a band of mercenaries/slavers) With how much Tom is playing it safe/mellowed out over the last few years, it wouldn't surprise me if it's clarified Trace only killed/enslaved soldiers and let the women and children go free. (Not defending Trace or anything, just typing my thoughts.)
The page still stands. Children are children, regardless of whose. And this being wolves, the odds of the women being particularly guilty isn't great either.

And really, you don't even have to go to pre-story Trace. He killed a bunch of people at the basitin tower that he really didn't need to, and he's never shown any remorse for it. And Laura never had to die, either; he could have taken old Alabster down, or taken the tower down, or done pretty much anything he wanted, probably. He went with kill them all and sort it out later.

The contrast between the initial Laura scene and the eventual explanation is definitely a curveball, but there isn't really anything in the facts that doesn't fit. I don't think Tom is trying to minimize Trace being awful.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Mike seems to have a bit of Stockholm syndrome towards his life as slave yes, he even said once he doesn't think he could survive in another environment. But perhaps that should just be taken literally, he physically doesn't know how to survive without having some kind of roof and food supplied for him.
Yeah, he makes that point, and the shackles quite literally do not chafe.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am More seriously I found it kind of disappointing Evals (and Mike) just immediately took his leave of the whole thing after what Eric has put him through, after being one of the only characters to stand up to/point out his evil before*. Perhaps his only concern was getting away from humanity, or perhaps he has a bit of a forgiving personality deep down, not really enough spotlight on him to form a full opinion.
That's why I think it was clever of Eric. While the gesture isn't much, it's so much more than he's ever done before that it might be enough to cut through Evals' resentment. If someone consistently treats you like [censored], and then suddenly does something nice, it can throw you, even if it really shouldn't be enough.

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am *(besides Kat I guess, but I find her kind of morally ugly too, and a detriment to the story, but I'll withhold ultimate judgement on her until she gets some development)
I like Kat, but yeah, that's so much of a tangent that we probably shouldn't branch out in that direction :P
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#50 Post by Hulk10 »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 am
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
I think they were not saying that Eric is intellectually incapable of understanding the heinousness of his actions. But that he is so far down the gutter he is morally incapable of facing his true nature. That is: he convinced himself he is an all-around nice guy who never did anything wrong.
Unlike say Kei, who has shown remorse for slaving Flora.
Good point.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#51 Post by James Polymer »

amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm Why does this distinction matter? I don't know if real-life being transgender is biological or psychological or sociological or some grab bag of each, but while you can have a nature vs nurture argument all day long, the thing both views agree on is that regardless of how you got there, you are who you are.
"Regardless of how you got there, you are who you are." - amenon

That's...that is succinct and beautiful, and sums up what an unfortunate number of people seem to overlook. Can I put that on a t-shirt and give you a commission for each sale? :wink:
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#52 Post by Hulk10 »

James Polymer wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:54 pm
amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm Why does this distinction matter? I don't know if real-life being transgender is biological or psychological or sociological or some grab bag of each, but while you can have a nature vs nurture argument all day long, the thing both views agree on is that regardless of how you got there, you are who you are.
"Regardless of how you got there, you are who you are." - amenon

That's...that is succinct and beautiful, and sums up what an unfortunate number of people seem to overlook. Can I put that on a t-shirt and give you a commission for each sale? :wink:
I concur. That was very beautifully put.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#53 Post by Technic[Bot] »

amenon wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm
Regardless of how you got there, you are who you are.
-Amenon for 2020
These kind of comments are the reason I join forums! Also the whole discussion you two have going on it mightly interesting.
Wobaku wrote: Gonna assume you mean Clovis' dragon gem? If so I agree it's probably part of his plan to reclaim his old body, and I would love to see the scenario you described play out, even if it runs the risk of shattering my opinions of Natani, depending on what she chooses.
I think you figured out which next story arc will be playing in the next 5 or so years. I have not read TDM, because money, but if there is anyone who feels completely alien on his own skin is him, and he does not seem like the kind of person who would simply ignore it. So yeah he eentually get involved with (more like against) the party, eventually gets defeated, I retire from a long career, and the gem end up with Nat who will eventually have to choose what he really wants.
amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am *(besides Kat I guess, but I find her kind of morally ugly too, and a detriment to the story, but I'll withhold ultimate judgement on her until she gets some development)
I like Kat, but yeah, that's so much of a tangent that we probably shouldn't branch out in that direction :P
This seems like it will be a Kat heavy chapter, so I imagine there will be lots of time for that discussion in the following years...
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#54 Post by Wobaku »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:55 am I think you figured out which next story arc will be playing in the next 5 or so years. I have not read TDM, because money, but if there is anyone who feels completely alien on his own skin is him, and he does not seem like the kind of person who would simply ignore it. So yeah he eentually get involved with (more like against) the party, eventually gets defeated, I retire from a long career, and the gem end up with Nat who will eventually have to choose what he really wants.
You should search for TDM when you can, it's a good, if short read. I do think Clovis is being set up as a ''main villain'' for the future, but I also think he/she is too weak to pose a major threat, especially considering we now have three mages in the main group who are at least decently strong, if extremely unreliable.

Now, Tom said that he retired Nora because she was too strong/handy for team A to have, any problem arises, Nora destroys it. And Reni is possibly even more useful than she was. Not as powerful or experienced, but her bottomless saddlebags can potentially contain any magic items that Tom can think of. She is too useful to stay in the picture for much longer.
Spoiler!
Now I said earlier that I think Clovis' gem is part of his plan to reclaim his maleness, but to elaborate and speculate on exactly what it will do, mana gems usually give whoever wields them a source of power, but perhaps the enchantment Brahn mentions this one received will make it do the opposite - draw out the power of something or someone else. Dragons are ''beings of magic'' after all, and it was dragon magic that took Clovis' body from him, perhaps he's decided dragon magic is what he needs to reclaim it. I think our two pretty princesses are due for a meeting.

This would solve both the issues of the group having a member that's way too powerful by removing her, and of the villain being too weak, by giving him a level of power maybe comparable to Trace, which hasn't been done yet in this story, unless you count that mask.
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:55 am This seems like it will be a Kat heavy chapter, so I imagine there will be lots of time for that discussion in the following years...
In spite of what I said above, I get the feeling this will be a bit of a slow/filler chapter. All of the 3+ ''stories'' mentioned on the title page seem completely disparate, and while I am curious to see Raine and Rose meet, I can't imagine anyone being particularly hyped for the ''Zen and Kat fall in luv'' and ''Maddie vs Karen silliness contest''.
Then again, both Clovis' gem and a door that presumably represents the third floor are also on the cover page, so what do I know.
Warrl wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:47 pm
Mike seems to have a bit of Stockholm syndrome towards his life as slave yes, he even said once he doesn't think he could survive in another environment. But perhaps that should just be taken literally, he physically doesn't know how to survive without having some kind of roof and food supplied for him.
Mike was pretty explicit. The culture that he grew up in, the only culture he knows, is the culture of the human realm. He knows all the concepts behind working for a wage and buying food and shelter. He speaks (and understands) human fluently, probably more fluently than he speaks keidran - aside from any "accent" imposed by his differently-shaped vocal apparatus, which issue is totally glossed over in this and most other furry comics. He has no idea how to live in the wild, how to hunt, how to build decent shelter from wild materials. (He may also have misconceptions about precisely how comparatively primitive "wild"-keidran culture is).
Stockholm syndrome probably wasn't the right choice of words, but I still maintain it's safe to say that the idea his treatment was acceptable/he is a servant has been drilled into him. Right there in the page amenon linked he basically says ''Eric told me not to take the shackles off, so I didn't take the shackles off.''

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#55 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:55 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 am
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
I think they were not saying that Eric is intellectually incapable of understanding the heinousness of his actions. But that he is so far down the gutter he is morally incapable of facing his true nature. That is: he convinced himself he is an all-around nice guy who never did anything wrong.
Unlike say Kei, who has shown remorse for slaving Flora.
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 am
He's certainly smart enough to be able to face the reality of his actions.
Didn't mean to imply he wasn't intelligent enough, what I meant was, because of his personality and total lack of respect for any boundaries (Repeatedly asking Flora to strip/pose for him, touching her, and making lewd comments about her body when she clearly wasn't willing or comfortable, for example.) He just wouldn't see anything wrong with quote making use of his slaves.
Unfortunately there are people like that today. I could mention a good example but I don't think its wise.
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#56 Post by Wobaku »

amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm I've been arguing for a pretty long time (before the mindscape) that Natani died when Issac's spell hit her, and that we've had a Natani 2.0 ever since. Not completely different, and in the same body, but a distinct person. That's still more or less my position, even though it now seems like the original Natani also survived, at least in some form.

But my point is simply that they're not one and the same, and I think they're different enough that even if they were working with the same set of experiences, they'd be distinguishable. (You say below 'very similar'. I'm not sure about the very, but similar seems safe to say.)
So, correct me if i'm wrong here, but you more or less have the view that the Soul/Consciousness of Natani ceased inhabiting her body when Issac zapped her, and from that point onward she has been dead or trapped inside the mindscape(at least a part of her) while an entirely new consciousness was created from Zen+Natani's memories and put into her body.

It's certainly an interesting thing to consider, and not one I think can be proven wrong or right, as we'd need to get into rather abstract concepts about life and death, and where our brains end and our minds begin. (she said her body was unscathed) But I have to say I disagree for two reasons, Natani says on the 22nds page, that youngnat is a ''piece of herself'', and sure, Natani is far from omniscient but I still feel it's evidence they are and were one and the same, and secondly YoungNat would be aware if an intrusive AI was inhabiting her body (i'm being hyperbolic obviously, but I feel this is a decent way of visualising how it would have felt to ''Natani 1.0'' when ''Natani 2.0'' was created)
And would have told Natani she is a different person to her when they met.
amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Also, personally I don't believe anything implies that Zen went on viewing Natani as weak&helpless for years, just when she genuinely was young and afraid.
He went at least from there to the time of the link, which I think is more than a year, and includes Natani being badass enough to join him in the guild. (Which he put down to 'desperation'.) If he hadn't, we wouldn't have (most of) this mess.
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am I view the mind-copying part of the link as a one time thing, and when Natani was going through it (the linking procedure), she again legitimately was reliant on zen - she was half dead, weaker than Zen, and about the same age as Maeve is now. It was Zen's responsibility to take care of his helpless little sister, and what he was feeling at the time got copied over and ''burned into'' Natani. I don't believe he went on viewing her as weak and helpless for any length of time, and I don't think it would have altered Natani's opinions of herself if he did either way.
That's a good point about Zen's state of mind during the formation of the link itself, but I don't think that played a huge part, simply because the memory that's always keyed to the concept of 'weak little girl' is the older one of them having just lost their parents.
Not that either of these makes a world of difference, but even after training for a year or so Natani was still pretty foolish/dumb, now that isn't the same as ''helpless'' I know, but I still feel Zen was slightly justified in viewing her as needing him to look out for her. And let's not forget Zen went through something no child should, losing not just his parents but also presumably every other friend/family member he ever had, it's understandable, if not forgivable that he might become very overprotective of the one piece of his life he had left. Building on this, I can see that particular memory, the one that's responsible for his view of Natani, being far too painful for him to dwell on, so it might be understandable he never realised his view of Nat was so wrong.

This talk has given me a thought though, perhaps Zen's outward demeanour and mocking humour is just something he uses to shield himself with, and deep down he is legitimately a very damaged person who lives in pretty constant fear of losing the last of his family, and that the loss of Natani would break him (read:suicide) fully. Doesn't really make him a better character morally, but perhaps a more interesting one.


amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm The cause of that inner turmoil is the original copied impression. At that point, it became primarily Natani's problem. Though, if Zen has all along been being as much of a [censored] to him as we've seen him be during the Keith era, needling him any time he felt something they saw as feminine, that won't exactly have helped.
Yeah, Zen seems pretty averse to anything feminine, Natani even says that when her breasts started growing he just pretended they weren't there. Not that it makes Zen any better, but perhaps that's just part of being a wolf.

amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm Natani didn't view, in your words, herself as weak -- he viewed youngtani as weak. Natani was convinced that he was weak before the link, because that was Zen's impression of who he had been. And since Natani after the link knew he wasn't weak, he attributed that strength incorrectly to Zen, and ever since lived terrified of sliding back to who he used to be. Except that person only ever existed in his brother's idiot teenage head, from where they got copied into Natani's idiot teenage head, and then remained in both of their idiot adult heads until youngtani came along and set the record straight.

(Though I guess 'teenage' doesn't exactly work with keidran, does it?)
Ah I should have specified I did mean her former self. And I understood what you meant by teenage fine. Perhaps adolescent is a better term though, but according to the Maeve age thing they do indeed go through a ''teenage phase'', in this case complete with ripped jeans, spikey collar and hair-dye, qt.

amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm Well hey, hooray for being cis and all that, and I certainly don't want to downplay the challenges inherent in being trans, but categorically consigning Natani (or indeed, any non-transitioning trans person) to misery is going way too far. Wait and see, and maybe you'll be surprised.
Yeah I definitely went too far with that statement, but for the record in the other thread when I said ''Thinking every day about having a different body'' is pretty much word for word what a friend who is an ''X stuck in a Y body'' said to me some years ago, and from their other comments over time, it sounded to me like the majority of people in their position harbour varying levels of resentment for themselves/their bodies. I realise I shouldn't base my opinions on second hand accounts, and I don't think for a second Tom would write such a negative ending for Natani, (and I didn't mean to imply it was the case for all transgender people) I just don't like the thought of it being a possibility in the case of a vague ending.
amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Gonna assume you mean Clovis' dragon gem? If so I agree it's probably part of his plan to reclaim his old body, and I would love to see the scenario you described play out, even if it runs the risk of shattering my opinions of Natani, depending on what she chooses.
Ah, yes, Clovis, derp. Too many smug orange C-named people...

And hey! We've found common ground :grin:
Oh. Well. I had assumed we agree about most things in regards to twokinds, it's just that there isn't really any discussion to be had about the things we agree on/understand already.
amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am They're probably selected at an early age, and it has little to do with their perceived ''worth''. I can't imagine Lynn being a criminal or anything like that, nor do I want to imagine what he might have done to deserve it.
Well, there's always the theory that he had sex with King Adelaide and was never the same again. (I think that was Dadrobit's?)
I've heard the same thing before, considered making it a joke about myself actually but it seemed a bit too crude. I would be interested in knowing when that ''theory'' was first posted here, if it's realistic, and compare it to some other discussion of the topic.

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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#57 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Wobaku wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:34 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:55 am I think you figured out which next story arc will be playing in the next 5 or so years. I have not read TDM, because money, but if there is anyone who feels completely alien on his own skin is him, and he does not seem like the kind of person who would simply ignore it. So yeah he eentually get involved with (more like against) the party, eventually gets defeated, I retire from a long career, and the gem end up with Nat who will eventually have to choose what he really wants.
You should search for TDM when you can, it's a good, if short read. I do think Clovis is being set up as a ''main villain'' for the future, but I also think he/she is too weak to pose a major threat, especially considering we now have three mages in the main group who are at least decently strong, if extremely unreliable.

Now, Tom said that he retired Nora because she was too strong/handy for team A to have, any problem arises, Nora destroys it. And Reni is possibly even more useful than she was. Not as powerful or experienced, but her bottomless saddlebags can potentially contain any magic items that Tom can think of. She is too useful to stay in the picture for much longer.
Spoiler!
Now I said earlier that I think Clovis' gem is part of his plan to reclaim his maleness, but to elaborate and speculate on exactly what it will do, mana gems usually give whoever wields them a source of power, but perhaps the enchantment Brahn mentions this one received will make it do the opposite - draw out the power of something or someone else. Dragons are ''beings of magic'' after all, and it was dragon magic that took Clovis' body from him, perhaps he's decided dragon magic is what he needs to reclaim it. I think our two pretty princesses are due for a meeting.

This would solve both the issues of the group having a member that's way too powerful by removing her, and of the villain being too weak, by giving him a level of power maybe comparable to Trace, which hasn't been done yet in this story, unless you count that mask.
In spite of what I said above, I get the feeling this will be a bit of a slow/filler chapter. All of the 3+ ''stories'' mentioned on the title page seem completely disparate, and while I am curious to see Raine and Rose meet, I can't imagine anyone being particularly hyped for the ''Zen and Kat fall in luv'' and ''Maddie vs Karen silliness contest''.
Then again, both Clovis' gem and a door that presumably represents the third floor are also on the cover page, so what do I know.
Been planning to read it but my currency is a bit devaluated at the moment and would actually feel bad if i did not paid the 5 dollars for Tom's patreon and simply looked elsewhere.
In my the antagonist in order of importance/power are:
Spoiler!
  • Clovis, less
  • Sirius
  • Brahn
  • Dark-Trace
  • The masks, most
On the other hand, if the boat arc told us anything is that Tom is extremely good at developing their characters when they are in the same physical space he also fleshes out any relationships they may develop, romantic or otherwise, althought he is not as good at moving the plot forward.
So yeah I am actually Hyped for the chapter!
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#58 Post by amenon »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am So, correct me if i'm wrong here, but you more or less have the view that the Soul/Consciousness of Natani ceased inhabiting her body when Issac zapped her, and from that point onward she has been dead or trapped inside the mindscape(at least a part of her) while an entirely new consciousness was created from Zen+Natani's memories and put into her body.

It's certainly an interesting thing to consider, and not one I think can be proven wrong or right, as we'd need to get into rather abstract concepts about life and death, and where our brains end and our minds begin. (she said her body was unscathed) But I have to say I disagree for two reasons, Natani says on the 22nds page, that youngnat is a ''piece of herself'', and sure, Natani is far from omniscient but I still feel it's evidence they are and were one and the same, and secondly YoungNat would be aware if an intrusive AI was inhabiting her body (i'm being hyperbolic obviously, but I feel this is a decent way of visualising how it would have felt to ''Natani 1.0'' when ''Natani 2.0'' was created)
And would have told Natani she is a different person to her when they met.
I actually should go over everything there's been on the link, and the mindscape sequence, and maybe TDM too, and see if I can re-evaluate it all. But I'm a bit pressed for time, so I'm gonna punt that for now and ask for your thoughts on a few things:

What if, soul-wise, it's something like this:
Youngtani is a consciousness that represents Natani's soul
Zen is a consciousness that represents Zen's soul
Natani is a consciousness that represents a soul that's a mixture of those two. (But also an independent entity in its own right.) Natani is linked with youngtani in the same way he's linked with Zen. Youngtani might actually literally be dead. (I.e, the soul of a Natani that died to Issac's spell, hanging around wherever souls go after death.) That would be one way to explain why she has knowledge that was supposedly destroyed. The plausible relative tenuousness of an afterlife connection would also help explain why she never surfaced until Zen's side went quiet.

Or to take another approach; whatever youngtani is, I think it's pretty clear that what she represents is Natani's true past. Right? But a past isn't generally something you can talk to. So what is it that's manifesting youngtani as a person?

And also another old thought: We have this example of a broken memory. Wouldn't it be neat if it turned out that youngtani/Natani actually does remember their parents?

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am Not that either of these makes a world of difference, but even after training for a year or so Natani was still pretty foolish/dumb, now that isn't the same as ''helpless'' I know, but I still feel Zen was slightly justified in viewing her as needing him to look out for her.
And not exactly only back then, either. It's a solid point that Zen thinking of Natani as his idiot younger sibling is very justified, regardless of gender, but that indeed isn't the same as weak or helpless.

(And in fact, in the comic so far, Zen has needed Natani's help a lot more than Natani has needed Zen's.)

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am And let's not forget Zen went through something no child should, losing not just his parents but also presumably every other friend/family member he ever had, it's understandable, if not forgivable that he might become very overprotective of the one piece of his life he had left. Building on this, I can see that particular memory, the one that's responsible for his view of Natani, being far too painful for him to dwell on, so it might be understandable he never realised his view of Nat was so wrong.
There could be something to that. Whatever the Magi bros are, they certainly aren't introspective. Something I've said before is that all Zen and Natani ever really needed to sort things out was a solid night of drinking and just... letting it all out.

(And again, seven years. Seven years...)

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am This talk has given me a thought though, perhaps Zen's outward demeanour and mocking humour is just something he uses to shield himself with, and deep down he is legitimately a very damaged person who lives in pretty constant fear of losing the last of his family, and that the loss of Natani would break him (read:suicide) fully. Doesn't really make him a better character morally, but perhaps a more interesting one.
I've floated the idea before that Zen essentially went on living because of Natani. That it was that fundamental.

And it's not hard to build a case that Zen's life revolves around Natani to this day; Zen is always ethereally bugging Nat, while we've never seen Nat haunt Zen except to help him, at his request. (Group B attack, Group B hostage situation.) [Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything, because Zen hasn't had an independent plotline, so if Nat has been poking in on him it wouldn't have been pageworthy. But it could mean something.]

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am Yeah, Zen seems pretty averse to anything feminine, Natani even says that when her breasts started growing he just pretended they weren't there. Not that it makes Zen any better, but perhaps that's just part of being a wolf.
I'm not sure what to think of the ignoring breasts thing. I mean, it's at least better than giving him [censored] about it. Maybe he thinks that would be unfair, because it's not like it's a behavior or anything? On the other hand, the fact that Natani has that complaint means it also wasn't the best way to handle it. Perhaps he just didn't know what to do? Hard to blame him if so. It's definitely one for the advice columnists.

On the being a wolf thing, I don't think Zen is sexist. Quite possibly less so than Nat, even. He's the one who said not to underestimate Kat, and I don't remember offhand what he might have done that would weigh on the other side of the scale. (Whereas Natani did at least have this moment.)

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am Ah I should have specified I did mean her former self. And I understood what you meant by teenage fine. Perhaps adolescent is a better term though, but according to the Maeve age thing they do indeed go through a ''teenage phase'', in this case complete with ripped jeans, spikey collar and hair-dye, qt.
"But Mooom! I don't wanna be rebellious!" is such a great line :grin:

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am Yeah I definitely went too far with that statement, but for the record in the other thread when I said ''Thinking every day about having a different body'' is pretty much word for word what a friend who is an ''X stuck in a Y body'' said to me some years ago, and from their other comments over time, it sounded to me like the majority of people in their position harbour varying levels of resentment for themselves/their bodies. I realise I shouldn't base my opinions on second hand accounts, and I don't think for a second Tom would write such a negative ending for Natani, (and I didn't mean to imply it was the case for all transgender people) I just don't like the thought of it being a possibility in the case of a vague ending.
I'm not talking from better than second hand either, but 1) individual variance is always big enough that stereotypes don't mean much when talking about any given person and 2) from what I gather, being accepted for who you are can be huge. If Natani is seen as he wants to be seen by the people he loves, the body may be of secondary importance. It would be a way to guarantee that end, but may be less than necessary in itself.

Also, people make do. Keith and Nat are both always going to be people who've lost a hell of a lot. You focus on what you do have, and build from there.

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am
amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm
Wobaku wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:51 am Gonna assume you mean Clovis' dragon gem? If so I agree it's probably part of his plan to reclaim his old body, and I would love to see the scenario you described play out, even if it runs the risk of shattering my opinions of Natani, depending on what she chooses.
And hey! We've found common ground :grin:
Oh. Well. I had assumed we agree about most things in regards to twokinds, it's just that there isn't really any discussion to be had about the things we agree on/understand already.
Specifically common ground about Natani's future arc. Which does feel like an area of some minor contention between us :P

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:01 am
amenon wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:10 pm Well, there's always the theory that he had sex with King Adelaide and was never the same again. (I think that was Dadrobit's?)
I've heard the same thing before, considered making it a joke about myself actually but it seemed a bit too crude. I would be interested in knowing when that ''theory'' was first posted here, if it's realistic, and compare it to some other discussion of the topic.
It's entirely possible I'm either misattributing or misrepresenting the idea. Dadrobit isn't completely inactive here, I think, so I expect he might eventually chime in.

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:30 am On the other hand, if the boat arc told us anything is that Tom is extremely good at developing their characters when they are in the same physical space he also fleshes out any relationships they may develop, romantic or otherwise, althought he is not as good at moving the plot forward.
So yeah I am actually Hyped for the chapter!
Yup, bring it on! I'm all about character dynamics, new and old, and people getting breathers. Heck, I legitimately think Tom cut away from the boat too soon. (Eric/Kat plotline was just dropped. Everything else was handled, I think, but it would have been nice if Keith and Nat had actually got to something like a status quo before everything was mixed up again.)
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#59 Post by Wobaku »

amenon wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:51 pm What if, soul-wise, it's something like this:
Youngtani is a consciousness that represents Natani's soul
Zen is a consciousness that represents Zen's soul
Natani is a consciousness that represents a soul that's a mixture of those two. (But also an independent entity in its own right.) Natani is linked with youngtani in the same way he's linked with Zen. Youngtani might actually literally be dead. (I.e, the soul of a Natani that died to Issac's spell, hanging around wherever souls go after death.) That would be one way to explain why she has knowledge that was supposedly destroyed. The plausible relative tenuousness of an afterlife connection would also help explain why she never surfaced until Zen's side went quiet.

Or to take another approach; whatever youngtani is, I think it's pretty clear that what she represents is Natani's true past. Right? But a past isn't generally something you can talk to. So what is it that's manifesting youngtani as a person?
I'm going to take what's stated in the comic literally and assume that youngtani is merely a piece of Natani's soul/consciousness which got broken off of the whole when the dark magic hit her, so i'm hesitant to think of her as being representative of the ''original'' Natani. The original explanation for the link was that pieces were missing and needed replacing, after all.
I view (current) Natani as something of a 70/30 split between her own soul, and the parts that were copied over from Zen, though i'm not so sure about the size of the split anymore.

Anyway, I do view current Natani as being the ''true'' Natani, it's just that she needed pieces to be replaced partway through her life, and is still fundamentally the same person. And I don't view Youngtani as being a whole person/consciousness, she simply seems to me to be a personification of ''How Natani would have reacted in this situation''
And yes she represents Natani's past, in that she is a storytelling vehicle for Natani to get a clearer view of that past, I don't think she really has a life or exists outside of Natani's interactions with her in the mindscape.
amenon wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:51 pm And also another old thought: We have this example of a broken memory. Wouldn't it be neat if it turned out that youngtani/Natani actually does remember their parents?
Natani has two brown eyes in that flashback, so i'm going to assume it must be pre soulshatter, so no I don't think that there's any way Youngtani could remember her parents, it's like Nat says in that page, she was simply too young to remember them properly, and the memory eroded over time

Which gets me thinking it couldn't have been that many years between Natani's parents dying and her attempting that spell, and Laura thought that Keith might not remember her at all after 5 years apart, perhaps Keidran do have quite brief memories.
amenon wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:51 pm I'm not sure what to think of the ignoring breasts thing. I mean, it's at least better than giving him [censored] about it. Maybe he thinks that would be unfair, because it's not like it's a behavior or anything? On the other hand, the fact that Natani has that complaint means it also wasn't the best way to handle it. Perhaps he just didn't know what to do? Hard to blame him if so. It's definitely one for the advice columnists.

On the being a wolf thing, I don't think Zen is sexist. Quite possibly less so than Nat, even. He's the one who said not to underestimate Kat, and I don't remember offhand what he might have done that would weigh on the other side of the scale. (Whereas Natani did at least have this moment.)
We don't really know if their tribe/village shared the standard wolf views on these things (do more worldbuilding Tom!) but I think it's safe to assume they were at least a little predisposed towards men. Zen seemed to know that women wouldn't be welcome into a guild, but we can't know if that's something he learnt before his parents died or after.
Plus, like you said in the smutfic thread, her overly masculine/dominant persona has to have its roots somewhere, I believe you blamed ''wolf culture''.

amenon wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:51 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:30 am On the other hand, if the boat arc told us anything is that Tom is extremely good at developing their characters when they are in the same physical space he also fleshes out any relationships they may develop, romantic or otherwise, althought he is not as good at moving the plot forward.
So yeah I am actually Hyped for the chapter!
Yup, bring it on! I'm all about character dynamics, new and old, and people getting breathers. Heck, I legitimately think Tom cut away from the boat too soon. (Eric/Kat plotline was just dropped. Everything else was handled, I think, but it would have been nice if Keith and Nat had actually got to something like a status quo before everything was mixed up again.)
I think the prevailing opinion is still that the boat arc (the group A parts of it at least) was a pretty tedious part of the comic at the time, I've even seen people say it killed their interest in the comic for several years.
I don't feel the mansion will last as long however, (euchre foreshadowed Brahn figuring out how to force entry, and Toms said he doesn't enjoy drawing the interior rooms) but i'm still not particularly excited for the bulk of what I'm expecting this chapter to be.

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amenon
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Re: Comic for April 22, 2018: Seeing Double

#60 Post by amenon »

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm I'm going to take what's stated in the comic literally and assume that youngtani is merely a piece of Natani's soul/consciousness which got broken off of the whole when the dark magic hit her, so i'm hesitant to think of her as being representative of the ''original'' Natani. The original explanation for the link was that pieces were missing and needed replacing, after all.
I view (current) Natani as something of a 70/30 split between her own soul, and the parts that were copied over from Zen, though i'm not so sure about the size of the split anymore.

Anyway, I do view current Natani as being the ''true'' Natani, it's just that she needed pieces to be replaced partway through her life, and is still fundamentally the same person. And I don't view Youngtani as being a whole person/consciousness, she simply seems to me to be a personification of ''How Natani would have reacted in this situation''
But then how's that personification happening? Youngtani does seem to me to be much too complete to be only representing the part that was lost. I don't think you'd get her if you just gave some fractional part of Natani Natani's original memories.

I have gone through and done my homework now, and here's some observations:
- Throughout the whole mindscape sequence, souls are not mentioned at all. They only speak in terms of 'mind'.
- Speaking of 'mind', youngtani talks about 'our mind' in the context of the soul shatter, but talks about 'your mind' when addressing Natani-since things
- It's also 'our head'
- Youngtani also calls Natani 'Natani' on multiple occasions. That is something that does suggest to me that youngtani is less than a complete entity. On the other hand, it's also Natani's name, so...
- When Natani explains things to Keith, he says 'younger me', and 'fractured mind'
- Note: On 973 Natani says 'But I'm learning to... accept the other side of myself a little bit more.'. I don't think 'the other side of myself' is a true reference to youngtani, even though there's obviously overlap between the concepts. I think that's Nat addressing the feminine impulses specifically.

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm And yes she represents Natani's past, in that she is a storytelling vehicle for Natani to get a clearer view of that past, I don't think she really has a life or exists outside of Natani's interactions with her in the mindscape.
I can't really see youngtani being anything less than, at the very least, some kind of a separate personality in her own right. She has access to memories Natani doesn't have. And she appears as distinct from Natani to Zen, as well.

A thought I had while pondering this: If she is a separate soul entirely, then it occurs to me that it would be within the powers of someone like Nora to reincorporate her in a separate body. (Per TDM, Nora has apparently arbitrary abilities to transform living beings, and also to manipulate souls, up to and including putting one in an inanimate object. She probably can't outright create a new soul, but I wouldn't want to try calling her bluff if it came to it.)

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm
amenon wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:51 pm And also another old thought: We have this example of a broken memory. Wouldn't it be neat if it turned out that youngtani/Natani actually does remember their parents?
Natani has two brown eyes in that flashback, so i'm going to assume it must be pre soulshatter, so no I don't think that there's any way Youngtani could remember her parents, it's like Nat says in that page, she was simply too young to remember them properly, and the memory eroded over time
Ah, but that's precisely it. We can't trust any of Natani's memories from before the link. If she actually succeeded, and then for some reason told Zen that she'd failed, he'd probably end up with a memory that he failed. Or say Natani originally did succeed in the spell, but then the memory of her parents was lost in the soulshatter, and Zen had forgotten about their parents -- he's older than Natani, sure, but at the same time I could see him fixating on the now and refusing to dwell on those memories, and thus letting them go -- then you'd probably end up with something made-up like this.

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm Which gets me thinking it couldn't have been that many years between Natani's parents dying and her attempting that spell, and Laura thought that Keith might not remember her at all after 5 years apart, perhaps Keidran do have quite brief memories.
I guess they could have some kind of a rolling childhood amnesia going... except Flora does remember stuff from when she was a kitten, and if we trust the character page, that would be from when she was no older than three.

This did come to mind as well, though.

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm We don't really know if their tribe/village shared the standard wolf views on these things (do more worldbuilding Tom!) but I think it's safe to assume they were at least a little predisposed towards men. Zen seemed to know that women wouldn't be welcome into a guild, but we can't know if that's something he learnt before his parents died or after.
I don't think there's any reason to assume their tribe/village was different from the well-established wolf average of 'sexist as all get-out'. (Of course, their family well could have been, regardless. Filed under 'probably unknowable'. But yeah, no reason to assume they were unusual.)

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pmPlus, like you said in the smutfic thread, her overly masculine/dominant persona has to have its roots somewhere, I believe you blamed ''wolf culture''.
There's a distinction here, and it's that it's perfectly possible to buy into all the I Must Be Like This To Be A Man ideas without really giving a fig about What Women Are Supposed To Be Like. Obviously those gender roles are going to start interacting when, say, relationships come into play, but that's not a canon concern.

I.e, it's possible to be hung up about being Manly McManlyMan, even in the context of a sexist culture, without necessarily being sexist.

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm I think the prevailing opinion is still that the boat arc (the group A parts of it at least) was a pretty tedious part of the comic at the time, I've even seen people say it killed their interest in the comic for several years.
There's a few different things here:

1) Even if it was tedious at the time (I don't think it ever was for me, but I've certainly seen that feeling expressed), there's a balancing act between 'week to week' and 'overall'. I'd be very surprised if there's any problem with the boat section feeling overlong in a binge read, and since it's over, that's always gonna be how most people who experience it experience it.

1.5) There is the fact that the set got super stale, but I think that's kind of a separate artistic concern.

2) Readers are always going to come and go. (And the fact that you heard from these ones means they probably didn't go very far, at that.)

3) I don't think there's any reason to think Twokinds lost more readers than it gained over that period. I'm pretty sure its popularity has always had an upward trajectory over any significant period of time. ('course, I don't have the metrics or anything, and even if they were solidly trending up there would always be arguments about rate of change. But the basic point is, it certainly looks like there was no harm done.)

Wobaku wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm I don't feel the mansion will last as long however, (euchre foreshadowed Brahn figuring out how to force entry, and Toms said he doesn't enjoy drawing the interior rooms) but i'm still not particularly excited for the bulk of what I'm expecting this chapter to be.
Well, we've already gotten +1 day of (as far as we know so far, anyway) nobody trying to kill anybody and nothing being on fire, so that's good for Keith's mental state :P

(And now that we have that context of "everything's still going to be intact tomorrow", I kinda hope we get some 'earlier' scenes as well. Unless nothing at all significant happened in the intervening period, which seems really bloody unlikely.)
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