Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

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aitaituo
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#31 Post by aitaituo »

An alternate theory is that black smoke thing is a mask.

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#32 Post by Esn »

I... really don't like this page, because Euchre is being uncharacteristically stupid.

He asks for help from the person who was unremittingly hostile to him just a page ago. He even mentions that Sirus, the one who tried to hang her all those years ago, is an ally of his. Rose might not even be aware that Euchre was devastated by the decision he made all those years ago, but assume that he and Sirus had planned to murder her together. Then, without waiting to see if she actually agrees, or trying to smooth things over between the two of them first, Euchre gives her a detailed instruction manual which Rose can now use to do the complete opposite of what he wants, simply out of revenge.

Somehow, I suspect that's exactly what she might try to do. Euchre should've just kept quiet.
Rafe wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:47 amI've always wondered if Sirus suspected what Euchre's true nature was. Now we see that he knows.
We saw that he knows quite a bit earlier, 14 years ago in fact:
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/129/
And later on, in Raine's flashback, it was heavily implied that Sirus already knew back when he put Rose up to be hanged:
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/724/
"I considered holding off until a translator arrived, but this seems easier. Then again... imagine what kind of things we might learn."
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/726/
"It's Sirus! He was trying to trap me -- to gauge my loyalties."

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#33 Post by Neutral Smith »

aitaituo wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:38 am An alternate theory is that black smoke thing is a mask.
If that is the case https://www.patreon.com/posts/three-masks-15262281 makes a lot more sense.
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#34 Post by AndreRhineDavis »

Euchre wrote:Only Sirus. He knows my true nature, but he’s an ally… for now.
Is Euchre implying that the other Master Templars *don't* know his "true nature", i.e. that he's a Keidran? That is quite interesting.

Also, this: :grin:
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#35 Post by Esn »

Also, what does Rose mean by saying "So Trace is a game of keep-away between the two of you, hm?"

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#36 Post by Candycat »

I hope Trace really gets himself in the soup. Really want to know what stance/direction Trace will take knowing the full extent of his past, or at least enough of his past to know what's up. Obviously it won't can't be "guess I'll just disregard this new information and carry on". Finding out something major about one's past is the kind of thing that drives characters into action! Or they develop significantly as characters, or both. Ideally both. Euchre just doesn't want genocidal maniac Trace to come back, and I don't see that happening unless Trace gets overwhelmed by the bit of corruption he's got hanging around. I mean any way you slice it if Trace gets involved with his past, the story will be super interesting at least. More interesting than Trace and co just running away, not that they can anyways, since it seems the past is seeking them out, or Trace at least. I just don't want another boat trip or "group B walking through some more forest and occasionally encountering something".

Also, Sirus sure is a creep. A creep that seems to be like the glue in this story as a whole. Creepy glue. I mean did you see how he unnecessarily murdered the buff Basitin general guy? Not to mention the brutality of it! And then the way he was 'testing' Euchre? Brutal. And he really was the one who was the catalyst for Flora x Trace with the necklace (where did it go?). Other stuff too. Creepy glue.
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#37 Post by BadJoke »

Candycat wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:59 am I hope Trace really gets himself in the soup. Really want to know what stance/direction Trace will take knowing the full extent of his past, or at least enough of his past to know what's up. Obviously it won't can't be "guess I'll just disregard this new information and carry on". Finding out something major about one's past is the kind of thing that drives characters into action! Or they develop significantly as characters, or both. Ideally both. Euchre just doesn't want genocidal maniac Trace to come back, and I don't see that happening unless Trace gets overwhelmed by the bit of corruption he's got hanging around. I mean any way you slice it if Trace gets involved with his past, the story will be super interesting at least. More interesting than Trace and co just running away, not that they can anyways, since it seems the past is seeking them out, or Trace at least. I just don't want another boat trip or "group B walking through some more forest and occasionally encountering something".
Yeah. Fighting off the ghosts of the past is my favorite type of story. I mean, how are you supposed to go on and don't fall again if you don't acknowledge what you did wrong? (Let alone not remembering it at all.)

It would be also the perfect occasion to see Trace really become an active character. And the antagonists to really get into concerted/serious action we can see. Until now even the basitins' island was a background conflict in comparison of the big war and all, with a massive fog of war above everything (leaving us with enemies barely present: come, makes a superior smile, goes.).

Sorry Euchre but frankly it's about time you stop chaperoning our heroes and let the make their own decisions. They may even be better without you.

[Also if trace may have the nice idea to discover the whole stuff about changing people and stop that thing... just personal wish but... please... (;_;) ]
Candycat wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:59 am Also, Sirus sure is a creep. A creep that seems to be like the glue in this story as a whole. Creepy glue. I mean did you see how he unnecessarily murdered the buff Basitin general guy? Not to mention the brutality of it! And then the way he was 'testing' Euchre? Brutal. And he really was the one who was the catalyst for Flora x Trace with the necklace (where did it go?). Other stuff too. Creepy glue.
Yup. His Smug Snake appearance had me forget how Ax-Crazy he actually was. He may look civil, polite, some sort of superior douchebag, but the moment he can let go the veneer he goers full homicidal sadist. And he clearly gets off doing this.

And that "enemy mine" thing? Even if it's out of necessity and the only option, it's a bad one. The moment anything will topple the equilibrium of the affair, it will end in a hearth-beat. Brutally. And bloodily.
Nothing good can motivate a "thing" like that guy. Euchre is unpleasant and morally dubious, but him? He's a pure monster.
Criminals are less dangerous than virtuous people: they kill less.

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#38 Post by Hulk10 »

Sirius is a creep I agree.
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#39 Post by SomeBody »

Esn wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:16 am I... really don't like this page, because Euchre is being uncharacteristically stupid.

He asks for help from the person who was unremittingly hostile to him just a page ago. He even mentions that Sirus, the one who tried to hang her all those years ago, is an ally of his. Rose might not even be aware that Euchre was devastated by the decision he made all those years ago, but assume that he and Sirus had planned to murder her together. Then, without waiting to see if she actually agrees, or trying to smooth things over between the two of them first, Euchre gives her a detailed instruction manual which Rose can now use to do the complete opposite of what he wants, simply out of revenge.

Somehow, I suspect that's exactly what she might try to do. Euchre should've just kept quiet.
Rafe wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:47 amI've always wondered if Sirus suspected what Euchre's true nature was. Now we see that he knows.
We saw that he knows quite a bit earlier, 14 years ago in fact:
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/129/
And later on, in Raine's flashback, it was heavily implied that Sirus already knew back when he put Rose up to be hanged:
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/724/
"I considered holding off until a translator arrived, but this seems easier. Then again... imagine what kind of things we might learn."
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/726/
"It's Sirus! He was trying to trap me -- to gauge my loyalties."

She's hostile to him, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have any self-interest in play.

"Remember how your boss/jailer was completely [censored], axe-murder crazy? And how he seems to be NOT [censored] now? I'm trying to keep him that way."
Seems like a strong argument to me, even for people with their history.

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#40 Post by Eclipse »

Esn wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:16 am http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/726/
"It's Sirus! He was trying to trap me -- to gauge my loyalties."
Something stuck out to me as I re-read this one. After this page, the flashback abruptly cuts off and (in the next real page of the comic, LOL at that April Fool's joke) Raine says Mary never told her what happened next. I have a feeling there's more to this story that we haven't been told. The scene really seems to paint Euchre as not really malicious but someone who made a bad decision when his back was against the wall and doesn't really feel good the situation. It's hard to tell if he really believes that, but it's convincing enough that Mary could probably believe it. As Raine pointed out, she could've gotten rid of Euchre if she wanted, she sure seemed PO'd enough to do it. The man she loved all these years allowed a suspected Keidran spy to die because he was an actual Keidran spy? There's more than enough reason for him to get the axe. But she didn't. She may have been sympathetic enough to his situation and still loved him enough to not do that (which is what Raine believes in the comic).

So I suspect instead that Mary made him a deal that would spare Rose's life and allow him to remain in the Templar. Maybe in exchange Euchre gave them information and instead of being put to death, Rose was enslaved by the Templar. This would be a win-win for both sides because Rose would still be alive and Mary could publicly claim it was punishment for spying. This may also be the reason Euchre and Sirus are allies, as Euchre accused him of knowing so Mary probably involved him in this deal as well somehow.

Now there's still some blanks to fill in here (how did Rose end up in Trace's care when this was before he became Grand Templar? Exactly why are Euchre and Sirus allied?), but this would explain a lot about what happened between then and now.

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#41 Post by steelabjur »

Rafe wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:47 am
Cosmacelf wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:37 am
Thallium wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:20 pm
Titanium Dragon wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:47 pm I wonder if Rose is going to show Trace what is in that room out of spite, or if she knows what's in there.

Also, which one is Sirus?
He's the shape changing master spy. Last seen looking shifty as Team A was getting off the boat on page 852.
And Sirus also was the person who nudged Trace and Flora together quite hard when he gave a clueless Trace a subtleseed necklace to give to Flora. Maybe even an enchanted one.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/29/
Probably the most significant thing about Sirus to Euchre is that he was the one who ordered Rose to be hanged.

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Seeing him all cheerful and pleased with himself while Rose was trembling and crying on the gallows was one of the most disturbing images in this entire story.

I've always wondered if Sirus suspected what Euchre's true nature was. Now we see that he knows. I wonder if at some point he confronted Euchre about his Keidran identity, and Euchre made him some kind of a bargain as the price for confirming it. Maybe it included giving Rose a long peaceful life, in exchange for Euchre giving up some valuable part of his own life.
We know EvilTrace knew the secret behind Raine's birth (if not the father), it's not a stretch to imagine Sirius knew of Euchre's affair with the former Grand Templar. It wouldn't surprise me if Sirius put two and two together and made Euchre buy his silence with the one thing in his arsenal that would interest him the most. We know Sirius is the Templar's Master Spy, what does Euchre know that might be useful for one such as him? Perfect Transformation. That would explain how he disposed of the Strength General so easily (and messily), he transformed into something far more powerful than him (given the whole "than a dragon!" thing that was mentioned when they were introduced, perhaps he decided to put it to the test :P ).

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#42 Post by Hulk10 »

Euchre seems untrustworthy is all I'm going to say.
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#43 Post by Eclipse »

steelabjur wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:56 pm We know EvilTrace knew the secret behind Raine's birth (if not the father), it's not a stretch to imagine Sirius knew of Euchre's affair with the former Grand Templar. It wouldn't surprise me if Sirius put two and two together and made Euchre buy his silence with the one thing in his arsenal that would interest him the most. We know Sirius is the Templar's Master Spy, what does Euchre know that might be useful for one such as him? True Transformation. That would explain how he disposed of the Strength General so easily (and messily), he transformed into something far more powerful than him (given the whole "than a dragon!" thing that was mentioned when they were introduced, perhaps he decided to put it to the test :P ).
Well that explains one loose end in my theory. I imagine that Sirus would very much love the idea of using Perfect Transformation.

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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#44 Post by Hulk10 »

How do we know that Evil Trace knew of Raine's birth?
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Re: Comic for March 30, 2018: Euchre's Motives

#45 Post by Candycat »

Eclipse wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:28 pm
steelabjur wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:56 pm We know EvilTrace knew the secret behind Raine's birth (if not the father), it's not a stretch to imagine Sirius knew of Euchre's affair with the former Grand Templar. It wouldn't surprise me if Sirius put two and two together and made Euchre buy his silence with the one thing in his arsenal that would interest him the most. We know Sirius is the Templar's Master Spy, what does Euchre know that might be useful for one such as him? True Transformation. That would explain how he disposed of the Strength General so easily (and messily), he transformed into something far more powerful than him (given the whole "than a dragon!" thing that was mentioned when they were introduced, perhaps he decided to put it to the test :P ).
Well that explains one loose end in my theory. I imagine that Sirus would very much love the idea of using Perfect Transformation.
The thing about that scene is that Sirus wasn't using perfect transformation. The Basitin general commented right before he died something along the lines of "Wait, you're not a Basitin... what are you?" And I'd say Sirus just used a powerful spell to kill him, not a dragon transformation, judging by the magic flash we see in the doorway panel.

But also we have no idea how perfect transformation even works or what the possible ramifications are besides "magic" and "a wizard did it". :potatoes:
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