Comic for March 24, 2018

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#31 Post by allanpike » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:04 am

I really don’t get people... Trace has gone on crazy, genocidal rampages in the past, and had literally made plans to exterminate every single Kiedran alive. Plans that have been pushing forwards even though he disappeared and he lost his memories... and yet because he oh so conveniently lost his memories, we are meant to just instantly forgive and forget what he’s done in the past? Instead of pushing for Trace to stand his ground and make up for what he’s done?

I mean, the moment he stood up against those ‘Templars’ was one hell of a crowning moment for a very good reason. Because he was finally done standing on the sidelines, finally done with people causing atrocities under his name, and was willing to show the world just how he had changed. Even if he has a long, long way to go when it comes to making up for all of the evil he has done.

But then we have people who haven’t done evil, genocidal actions... and they're meant to be pure evil, the worst of the worst, and must be lynched by a mob for it? People have been saying they don’t like Euchre, They think he’s an arrogant, backstab happy monster... but where’s your proof? Where’s your evidence? All I’ve seen of Euchre is someone who yes, might have manipulative and self-serving tendencies. But is still a loyal and kind individual, as those tendencies doesn’t make one automatically evil. Who does love his family and friends dearly. If he had taken Rose and fled, do you think the Templar would take that kindly? Or would they always pursue them, always chase after them to kill a Kiedran who had learned their craft?

Then there’s Kei. He doesn’t come across as a bad person either. He’s not exactly the best person around I admit that. He’s rather narrow-minded, which in conjunction with his hard-headedness makes it rather hard for him to admit that he’s wrong... Which in turn, doesn’t exactly help the fact that he tends to make quick, rash decisions! But his heart is in the right place. He wants to help protect his people and keep them safe. He might not go about it the right way, but I wouldn’t ask for him to be relieved of duty as Captain of the Guard anytime soon, as from the looks of it he does a pretty darn good job.

...

Euchre is Mrs. Nibbly? ... That could actually explain things rather well.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#32 Post by Hulk10 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm

Because Trace is the protagonist and we are supposed to sympathize with him. And he is like Anakin, he used to be a 'good' person, then turned evil and now is good again, like Anakin and many people have forgiven Anakin so why can't we do the same with Trace?
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#33 Post by Diabolicon » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:04 pm

I love Rose expression in panel five. For some reason it makes me think. "Come cousin, I may be old, but my fangs are still sharper than yours."

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#34 Post by Panther » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:16 pm

Diabolicon wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:04 pm
I love Rose expression in panel five. For some reason it makes me think. "Come cousin, I may be old, but my fangs are still sharper than yours."
That's not a fine "love" between Rose and Euchre : i guess she's still hating him for his neglect when she had been caught and enslaved
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#35 Post by Candycat » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:41 pm

Esn wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:08 am
Ok... am I really the first to say it? I actually registered on this forum just to make this post because nobody is pointing out the obvious.

Mrs. Nibbly is Euchre. Using his Perfect Transformation spell.
Explains Euchre appearing to Rose NOW.
Explains his remark that he's "keeping an eye on family".
Explains why Mrs. Nibbly has followed Group B all this way.
Explains Mrs. Nibbly not being caught by Carver's magical trap, and then attacking him at the most critical moment.
Explains how Mrs. Nibbly resurrected after apparently having her neck broken ("I've learned to protect myself from such things as death")
Explains Mrs. Nibbly not being afraid of Scythe (a real squirrel would be).
Explains Mrs. Nibbly being terrified of a mind-reading dragon who would blow his cover (luckily, Reni too distracted to notice).
Explains why Mrs. Nibbly specifically chose Raine to hide on from Reni (Raine is the most likely person to defend Euchre if he was suddenly discovered).

As for the discussion about Euchre's character, I side with those who say that he (mostly) did nothing wrong, at least from what I can see so far. He is just a well-meaning, though somewhat ambitious, person who made some mistakes in his life and hurt some of the people he loved, but then tried (and is still trying) to correct them as best as he is able. I think he seems "smug" sometimes (including on this page) because he feels at peace with himself since he knows that he's doing his best, even if some others are angry at him and have unrealistic expectations.

---

I think Kei is okay, as well. He seems to be fairly good at his rather dangerous and important job, though sometimes too arrogant in the stereotypical "guardsman" fashion. He made a hurtful mistake when he was younger in how he treated Flora but has obviously wanted for a long time now to make up for it. And even though he kinda bungled the execution, he still did her a good deed. Yes, he has some lingering attitude issues, but no worse than "Red".

---
TheMouse wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:10 am
Brahn's pet? Is that Mrs. Nibbly? Or something else lurking around?
I think that's a reference to Brahn's daughter (who was using a cat to spy on the mansion, particularly on Keith and Natani). Rose is calling her "Brahn's pet" because she seems to do everything that Brahn tells her to do.

---

By the way, what's up with the art for Rose's glasses? They have arms in panels 2 and 3, but not in panels 5 and 7.
I vaguely considered this when I first looked at the page. It's a definite possibility. Personally, I think it's a solid "maybe". But Why would he snuggle up with Scythe and not his daughter then?

Also New Trace is basically a different person from evil Trace. He's got like an alter ego darkness side going on. It's like saying Princess Luna is the same as Nightmare Moon or that Bakura and the Thief King are the same person. (I'm sure I'm missing more obvious examples...)They're not.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#36 Post by AndreRhineDavis » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:54 pm

Esn wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:08 am
Ok... am I really the first to say it? I actually registered on this forum just to make this post because nobody is pointing out the obvious.

Mrs. Nibbly is Euchre. Using his Perfect Transformation spell.
Explains Euchre appearing to Rose NOW.
Explains his remark that he's "keeping an eye on family".
Explains why Mrs. Nibbly has followed Group B all this way.
Explains Mrs. Nibbly not being caught by Carver's magical trap, and then attacking him at the most critical moment.
Explains how Mrs. Nibbly resurrected after apparently having her neck broken ("I've learned to protect myself from such things as death")
Explains Mrs. Nibbly not being afraid of Scythe (a real squirrel would be).
Explains Mrs. Nibbly being terrified of a mind-reading dragon who would blow his cover (luckily, Reni too distracted to notice).
Explains why Mrs. Nibbly specifically chose Raine to hide on from Reni (Raine is the most likely person to defend Euchre if he was suddenly discovered).

As for the discussion about Euchre's character, I side with those who say that he (mostly) did nothing wrong, at least from what I can see so far. He is just a well-meaning, though somewhat ambitious, person who made some mistakes in his life and hurt some of the people he loved, but then tried (and is still trying) to correct them as best as he is able. I think he seems "smug" sometimes (including on this page) because he feels at peace with himself since he knows that he's doing his best, even if some others are angry at him and have unrealistic expectations.

---

I think Kei is okay, as well. He seems to be fairly good at his rather dangerous and important job, though sometimes too arrogant in the stereotypical "guardsman" fashion. He made a hurtful mistake when he was younger in how he treated Flora but has obviously wanted for a long time now to make up for it. And even though he kinda bungled the execution, he still did her a good deed. Yes, he has some lingering attitude issues, but no worse than "Red".

---
TheMouse wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:10 am
Brahn's pet? Is that Mrs. Nibbly? Or something else lurking around?
I think that's a reference to Brahn's daughter (who was using a cat to spy on the mansion, particularly on Keith and Natani). Rose is calling her "Brahn's pet" because she seems to do everything that Brahn tells her to do.

---

By the way, what's up with the art for Rose's glasses? They have arms in panels 2 and 3, but not in panels 5 and 7.
omg yes yes yes, i really hope this theory is true
although I wonder why Euchre chose to free Zen... (remember when Nibbly nibbled on the ropes tying Zen?)

Also, I totally agree with your attitude towards Euchre and Kei

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#37 Post by Ddraig » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:07 pm

ZeroJinKui wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:19 pm
people hating on euchre, but i don't recall him doing anything... but they justify their hate by calling him arrogant.

...then why am i the only one who hates kei for that same kinda stuff?
because it's not the same -- though I also agree that Euchre seems to mostly be trying to do the right thing for others, even if he goes about it in a somewhat immoral way (except abandoning Rose, that was selfish as hell, but also predates everything else he's done)
i mean, kei is a worthless racist and former slave owner, isn't he?
'Slave owner' isn't such a negative term in the context of this world; slave owners are common and from the sound of it he was one who treated Flora like family rather like Eric treated Kat (but without the creepy pervness to other keidran) except for a short period before her escape (while Kei was still a kid in human terms) where he gave into peer pressure. As for him being a racist, as far as I've seen, he only assumes that those of a species would support their species if given the choice. It sounds rather like he believes the same of humans, too, which means he doesn't think keidran are lesser for it. I'd argue that defines him as more 'narrow-minded' than racist.
flora was his "pet" before the start of the comic, wasn't she?
Sort of? see the 'treated like family' bit above
not to mention his arrogance toward trace earlier before finding out he was his boss just made me hate him more.
Trace and Flora were pretending to be owner and slave to fit in. Should we really think poorly about someone believing that act and acting accordingly? He's an individual charged with enforcing the law, and he sees a situation he knows is illegal - and that Trace (apparently being about to lose a rather expensive investment) is likely to fight back. While he could have probably been less physical about it, I don't see how he actually did anything wrong there. He wasn't being arrogant, he was acting in accordance with his assigned duties. He's not there to be people's friend, he's there to enforce the law, and that requires some professional distance
doubt euchre could ever be worse than kei. :redhair:
Euchre abandoned family - Rose - to be executed and someone else had to intervene to save her
Kei, with the exception of a mistake made while he was a kid, treated Flora like family and looked out for her. He may have been slightly overbearing about it once, but that's an older brother for you.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#38 Post by allanpike » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:14 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm
Because Trace is the protagonist and we are supposed to sympathize with him. And he is like Anakin, he used to be a 'good' person, then turned evil and now is good again, like Anakin and many people have forgiven Anakin so why can't we do the same with Trace?
Anakin earned his redemption, and it came at the cost of his life.

Trace hasn't done anything to earn it. Just because we are 'supposed' to sympathize with him, doesn't mean we should. Personally, I do sympathize with him, but I feel like he should be doing a lot more to make up for what he's done in the past
Peace is only achieved through passion.
Knowledge is given through ignorance.
Harmony is only made by strength.
Strength is greater then power.
Emotion beholds peace.
Death is nothing but an end.
End is just a new beginning.

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#39 Post by Schrodinger » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:22 pm

allanpike wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:14 pm
Hulk10 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm
Because Trace is the protagonist and we are supposed to sympathize with him. And he is like Anakin, he used to be a 'good' person, then turned evil and now is good again, like Anakin and many people have forgiven Anakin so why can't we do the same with Trace?
Anakin earned his redemption, and it came at the cost of his life.

Trace hasn't done anything to earn it. Just because we are 'supposed' to sympathize with him, doesn't mean we should. Personally, I do sympathize with him, but I feel like he should be doing a lot more to make up for what he's done in the past
Trace's case is very different since Neutral essentially hit the reset button on him. Tabula Rasa and all. The person we see now isn't the same genocidal monster that seized power to get revenge for his late wife. Now Trace's a young man in love dealing with the heavy baggage of a madman and the mess of a world he left in his wake. Redemption just isn't a factor.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#40 Post by Hulk10 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:26 pm

Candycat wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:41 pm
Esn wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:08 am
Ok... am I really the first to say it? I actually registered on this forum just to make this post because nobody is pointing out the obvious.

Mrs. Nibbly is Euchre. Using his Perfect Transformation spell.
Explains Euchre appearing to Rose NOW.
Explains his remark that he's "keeping an eye on family".
Explains why Mrs. Nibbly has followed Group B all this way.
Explains Mrs. Nibbly not being caught by Carver's magical trap, and then attacking him at the most critical moment.
Explains how Mrs. Nibbly resurrected after apparently having her neck broken ("I've learned to protect myself from such things as death")
Explains Mrs. Nibbly not being afraid of Scythe (a real squirrel would be).
Explains Mrs. Nibbly being terrified of a mind-reading dragon who would blow his cover (luckily, Reni too distracted to notice).
Explains why Mrs. Nibbly specifically chose Raine to hide on from Reni (Raine is the most likely person to defend Euchre if he was suddenly discovered).

As for the discussion about Euchre's character, I side with those who say that he (mostly) did nothing wrong, at least from what I can see so far. He is just a well-meaning, though somewhat ambitious, person who made some mistakes in his life and hurt some of the people he loved, but then tried (and is still trying) to correct them as best as he is able. I think he seems "smug" sometimes (including on this page) because he feels at peace with himself since he knows that he's doing his best, even if some others are angry at him and have unrealistic expectations.

---

I think Kei is okay, as well. He seems to be fairly good at his rather dangerous and important job, though sometimes too arrogant in the stereotypical "guardsman" fashion. He made a hurtful mistake when he was younger in how he treated Flora but has obviously wanted for a long time now to make up for it. And even though he kinda bungled the execution, he still did her a good deed. Yes, he has some lingering attitude issues, but no worse than "Red".

---
TheMouse wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:10 am
Brahn's pet? Is that Mrs. Nibbly? Or something else lurking around?
I think that's a reference to Brahn's daughter (who was using a cat to spy on the mansion, particularly on Keith and Natani). Rose is calling her "Brahn's pet" because she seems to do everything that Brahn tells her to do.

---

By the way, what's up with the art for Rose's glasses? They have arms in panels 2 and 3, but not in panels 5 and 7.
I vaguely considered this when I first looked at the page. It's a definite possibility. Personally, I think it's a solid "maybe". But Why would he snuggle up with Scythe and not his daughter then?

Also New Trace is basically a different person from evil Trace. He's got like an alter ego darkness side going on. It's like saying Princess Luna is the same as Nightmare Moon or that Bakura and the Thief King are the same person. (I'm sure I'm missing more obvious examples...)They're not.
Kinda like Anakin and Darth Vader are different people. But Trace also has the issue of the fact that he was a madman when he did all those terrible things.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#41 Post by aitaituo » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:51 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:26 pm
But Trace also has the issue of the fact that he was a madman when he did all those terrible things.
This is important. Trace didn't go straight to genocidal maniac after Saria was murdered by keidran bandits. He was literally brain damaged by black magic first. Once he lost his memories, he immediately became a decent person and has remained a decent person since then. Except for that time he used black magic and murdered those Templar kids.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#42 Post by Hulk10 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:18 pm

aitaituo wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:51 pm
Hulk10 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:26 pm
But Trace also has the issue of the fact that he was a madman when he did all those terrible things.
This is important. Trace didn't go straight to genocidal maniac after Saria was murdered by keidran bandits. He was literally brain damaged by black magic first. Once he lost his memories, he immediately became a decent person and has remained a decent person since then. Except for that time he used black magic and murdered those Templar kids.
Yeah true so that goes for the sympathy angle.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#43 Post by James Polymer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm
Because Trace is the protagonist and we are supposed to sympathize with him. And he is like Anakin, he used to be a 'good' person, then turned evil and now is good again, like Anakin and many people have forgiven Anakin so why can't we do the same with Trace?
Well, for one thing Anakin's redemption involved his death at the hands of the Emperor; he effectively martyred himself. Had he survived, the New Republic would have almost certainly put him on trial for war crimes and his role in the rise of an oppressive, totalitarian regime that had killed billions on people. With Luke & Co. in charge he's officially venerated, but his name is probably still cursed by those who suffered during the Empire's rule and the Galactic Civil War (I can't see many relatives or friends of Alderaanians buying the "corrupted by the Dark Side" excuse).

Going on a bit of a tangent, the parallels between Trace and Anakin are quite surprising. Both of them were uber-powerful "magic" users who were traumatized by the deaths of their wives, and both delved into forbidden arts in an attempt to save them/bring them back. Both their minds were poisoned and subsumed in evil power as a result, radically altering their personalities and moral compasses. They both acted to tear down existing governments and replace them with totalitarian regimes promoting human interests and discriminating harshly against other species, up to and including enacting genocide when it suited them. The main difference between them being Anakin was manipulated by someone more powerful than he, while Trace served no-one (at least, no-one we know of; in my fantasy world I like to think the Human Mask had something to do with his fall and corruption).
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#44 Post by Hulk10 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:48 am

True enough but Trace has more leeway with forgiveness since he hasn't committed as many atrocities as Anakin.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#45 Post by Dadrobit » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:15 am

James Polymer wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 am
Hulk10 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm
He is like Anakin.
More Anakin stuff.
Bullcrap.

Trace was NEVER a good person. Saria's murder and his experiments in necromancy weren't some massive, mind altering, morality destroying event, it just nudged him further towards an extreme he was already pointed at in his lifelong career of being a dick towards keidran. We see that even as a child he had zero respect for them in the way that he referred to Rose on the gallows as an "it". Then later on after courting Saria he purchased his very own slave and got into a shouting match that "the whole town could hear" to justify it. Furthermore, it likely wasn't just the one slave that he owned, as Nora specifically says "the first time [Trace] bought a slave for the house".

And as for not committing many atrocities, I suppose these children deserved to die? And the King's Guard? "I'll kill you all and sort it out later."

Boy! What a protagonist! /sarcasm

And a big thing that y'all are overlooking is that "Dark Trace" is NOT some alter ego that was created during his rampage days that he suppressed after having his memories stripped away. It is simply Trace as he is now AFTER losing all of his memories but then finding out how much power he can unlock. The only influence creating Dark Trace is his own realizations of his potential power. "I don't need anything else except these powers."

Put in short, Trace was a dick growing up, Trace was a super dick as an adult, Trace was a murderous super dick after losing Saria and vowing hyper-revenge, and Trace is a murderous super dick now just because he's got power, (and he thinks about Flora on occasion).

The amount of time that you praise Trace for being a "protagonist" is an incredibly short period of time, (interspersed with child murder) whereas a majority of his life is spent unrepentantly having a moral compass that reads somewhere between "worse than Keiren on a bad day" to "literally Hitler."
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