Orchard Valley

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FiendishlyAdorable
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Re: Orchard Valley

#16 Post by FiendishlyAdorable »

Hulk10 wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:30 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:43 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:37 am Actually I think that the war was beginning before Trace became grand Templar.
If i am not mistaken. "A" was already happened. and since then realations between humans and non-humans were strained. But the whole rotuing Keidran from the planet. That was Trace´s idea. And the war a means to that end.
But wasn't Saria murdered by wolf keidran that seemed like an act of war.
Didn't Nora say that was a thief?
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Re: Orchard Valley

#17 Post by avwolf »

FiendishlyAdorable wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:09 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:30 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:43 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:37 amActually I think that the war was beginning before Trace became grand Templar.
If i am not mistaken. "A" was already happened. and since then realations between humans and non-humans were strained. But the whole rotuing Keidran from the planet. That was Trace´s idea. And the war a means to that end.
But wasn't Saria murdered by wolf keidran that seemed like an act of war.
Didn't Nora say that was a thief?
Yes. The Keidran in question was just a petty thief, though one of somewhat more murderous intent than I'd expect most thieves to be. This was not an act of war. Nor was the destruction of Zen and Natani's village by the Templar considered an act of war. Prior to events within the comic's timeline, Humans and Keidran were in an uneasy peace, punctuated with border skirmishes and depredation on both sides. None of these events were considered significant enough to be a true declaration of war until the Wolves invaded.

Now, of course, there were earlier wars. But at the start of the comic, Humans and Keidran were not at war with one another. The war did not really start until the party was traveling to the Basidian Isle, when the Keidran assassinated the Human King. The Wolves declared the war. The Wolves invaded first. We are pretty sure that Trace engineered the whole war, but in the perceptions of literally everyone in the comic, the Humans didn't start anything. The Wolves believed the Humans would declare war on them at any time, so they decided to strike first.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#18 Post by amenon »

avwolf wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:56 pm , but in the perceptions of literally everyone in the comic, the Humans didn't start anything.
With the notable exception of the Templar leadership.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#19 Post by Technic[Bot] »

amenon wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:35 pm
You seem to me to be describing this, within the bounds of the fallibility of human memory. (Discussion thread here; very amusing in many ways. The more things change...)

I expect something more metaphysical than massed combat -- not least because who wants to draw that? :P -- but it's a very true thing that one way or another, Trace is going to have to atone for all he's done. Killing the gods might be enough for something like absolution.
That is mighty interesting. to say the least. I imagine Trace will have to defend the Valley from one or two Templar, even Keidran, attacks. But entrenching on a small(?) town/city until the rest of the world kills each other in a war? Seems unpractical.

In lieu of a big sprawling fight I imagine the easiest for Trace to solve all his problems would be to reassert control of the Templar order. And getting rid of his former co-conspirators. It is also easier for Tom to draw that...
Along the way he has to "come to terms" with his past, this "ignoring" will only take him soo long. Until then he is a ticking bomb waiting to blow up and destroy everything he holds dear (again).

Also older/bearded Trace looks pretty neat
avwolf wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:56 pm Yes. The Keidran in question was just a petty thief, though one of somewhat more murderous intent than I'd expect most thieves to be.
He certainly was determined to kill the victim. He either had a serious hatred for humans or just was a psycopath.
amenon wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:45 pm
avwolf wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:56 pm , but in the perceptions of literally everyone in the comic, the Humans didn't start anything.
With the notable exception of the Templar leadership.
Also on tha note? did we ever meet Trace "inside man" on the island. Was it the guy building the towers?
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Re: Orchard Valley

#20 Post by avwolf »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:47 am
amenon wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:45 pm
avwolf wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:56 pm, but in the perceptions of literally everyone in the comic, the Humans didn't start anything.
With the notable exception of the Templar leadership.
Also on tha note? did we ever meet Trace "inside man" on the island. Was it the guy building the towers?
To my knowledge, we never had confirmation of who it was. I suppose Randall could be a possible option, though I personally figured that Trace was referring to a Basitin that he'd duped into letting the Templar send Randall there to build a tower. Randall was certainly loyal to the old Trace, and he was well-regarded by the Basitins. He wouldn't be a terrible candidate. If it was a Basitin, the most likely candidates were Nickolai Alaric and Albion Alabaster. Unless Trace regains his memory, I'm afraid his "inside man" likely took his identity to his grave.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#21 Post by Hulk10 »

I'm not entirely convinced that Trace was the one who instigated the war. Sure he had done some reprehensible things but he was conducting raids just like everyone else wasn't he? I haven't read the earlier comics recently.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#22 Post by amenon »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:47 am Also on tha note? did we ever meet Trace "inside man" on the island. Was it the guy building the towers?
Generally agree with avwolf above, but I always tended to figure that it was Randall, simply because Randall doesn't seem to be present at that meeting, and it would amuse me for his 'man on the island' to literally just be a man on the island :P

And thinking about it a bit more, I do feel like Trace's language, if figurative, implies a co-conspirator rather than a stooge, and I can't really think of who that could be. But if it is a basitin, then my money would definitely be on Ol' Albion Alabaster.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#23 Post by Hulk10 »

amenon wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:39 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:47 am Also on tha note? did we ever meet Trace "inside man" on the island. Was it the guy building the towers?
Generally agree with avwolf above, but I always tended to figure that it was Randall, simply because Randall doesn't seem to be present at that meeting, and it would amuse me for his 'man on the island' to literally just be a man on the island :P

And thinking about it a bit more, I do feel like Trace's language, if figurative, implies a co-conspirator rather than a stooge, and I can't really think of who that could be. But if it is a basitin, then my money would definitely be on Ol' Albion Alabaster.
Looking back the Templar and Trace were planning to get rid of the human King.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#24 Post by avwolf »

amenon wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:39 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:47 am Also on tha note? did we ever meet Trace "inside man" on the island. Was it the guy building the towers?
Generally agree with avwolf above, but I always tended to figure that it was Randall, simply because Randall doesn't seem to be present at that meeting, and it would amuse me for his 'man on the island' to literally just be a man on the island :P
*laugh* I do like that. It kind of makes the whole thing something of an action-comedy. Randall is just stuck on this island and he has to figure out how he's going to pull off this whole infiltration, but all he really knows anything about is architecture. He's not actually a spy, he's just a nerdy schlub who got stuck with this assignment and his overbearing, psychotic boss has placed the whole responsibility on his wholly-unprepared shoulders.
amenon wrote:And thinking about it a bit more, I do feel like Trace's language, if figurative, implies a co-conspirator rather than a stooge, and I can't really think of who that could be. But if it is a basitin, then my money would definitely be on Ol' Albion Alabaster.
Albion Alabaster being Trace's "inside man" would resolve one of the comic's strange curiosities. So Keith was exiled -- something Alabaster was very much involved in -- and the condition of his return was to bring back the Grand Templar. This would have been pretty concurrent with Trace's actual coup, so the Grand Templar at the time was Mary Silverlock, but everyone seemed to act like they'd meant Trace Legacy all along. If Alabaster was Trace's man on the island, then Alabaster may have already been aware of the plans for the coup and expected Trace to be the Grand Templar by the time Keith could possibly return (as much as Alabaster personally hoped Keith would die horribly out there among the "barbarians").

-- And Also --
Hulk10 wrote:I'm not entirely convinced that Trace was the one who instigated the war. Sure he had done some reprehensible things but he was conducting raids just like everyone else wasn't he? I haven't read the earlier comics recently.
That's the thing. Trace's goal was obviously genocide. In order to justify it, he needed pretense. Trace needed the war. That would be the only way to justify the eradication of the Keidran to everyone else -- it might even be the only way to eradicate the Keidran. He might need them to be near enough the Towers to do...something. Whatever it is they do. So he'd need the Keidran to invade. So Trace's actions were all designed to provoke a response, but never to go so far as to make it obvious that he'd provided the casus belli. In effect, Trace manipulated the war into happening, using the Wolves as catspaws to eliminate his opposition and give the Humans reason to want to fight the Keidran. Through it all, the Templar maintained plausible deniability. The Wolves made all these choices on their own (or so far as we know). All Trace really did was give them a little push. The same with the Basitins: Trace didn't force them to ruin themselves. Instead, he offered them something they wanted (Human magic -- the thing that beat them when they invaded the mainland before) and let them destroy themselves. He offered magic to "heal" their ailing King, probably knowing that the magic would actually continue to weaken the King. A weak King lets him take further advantage of the Generals, who are going to chase other strengths in order to save face in light of the King's weakness. It's really pretty clever.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#25 Post by Hulk10 »

avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm
amenon wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:39 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:47 am Also on tha note? did we ever meet Trace "inside man" on the island. Was it the guy building the towers?
Generally agree with avwolf above, but I always tended to figure that it was Randall, simply because Randall doesn't seem to be present at that meeting, and it would amuse me for his 'man on the island' to literally just be a man on the island :P
*laugh* I do like that. It kind of makes the whole thing something of an action-comedy. Randall is just stuck on this island and he has to figure out how he's going to pull off this whole infiltration, but all he really knows anything about is architecture. He's not actually a spy, he's just a nerdy schlub who got stuck with this assignment and his overbearing, psychotic boss has placed the whole responsibility on his wholly-unprepared shoulders.
amenon wrote:And thinking about it a bit more, I do feel like Trace's language, if figurative, implies a co-conspirator rather than a stooge, and I can't really think of who that could be. But if it is a basitin, then my money would definitely be on Ol' Albion Alabaster.
Albion Alabaster being Trace's "inside man" would resolve one of the comic's strange curiosities. So Keith was exiled -- something Alabaster was very much involved in -- and the condition of his return was to bring back the Grand Templar. This would have been pretty concurrent with Trace's actual coup, so the Grand Templar at the time was Mary Silverlock, but everyone seemed to act like they'd meant Trace Legacy all along. If Alabaster was Trace's man on the island, then Alabaster may have already been aware of the plans for the coup and expected Trace to be the Grand Templar by the time Keith could possibly return (as much as Alabaster personally hoped Keith would die horribly out there among the "barbarians").

-- And Also --
Hulk10 wrote:I'm not entirely convinced that Trace was the one who instigated the war. Sure he had done some reprehensible things but he was conducting raids just like everyone else wasn't he? I haven't read the earlier comics recently.
That's the thing. Trace's goal was obviously genocide. In order to justify it, he needed pretense. Trace needed the war. That would be the only way to justify the eradication of the Keidran to everyone else -- it might even be the only way to eradicate the Keidran. He might need them to be near enough the Towers to do...something. Whatever it is they do. So he'd need the Keidran to invade. So Trace's actions were all designed to provoke a response, but never to go so far as to make it obvious that he'd provided the casus belli. In effect, Trace manipulated the war into happening, using the Wolves as catspaws to eliminate his opposition and give the Humans reason to want to fight the Keidran. Through it all, the Templar maintained plausible deniability. The Wolves made all these choices on their own (or so far as we know). All Trace really did was give them a little push. The same with the Basitins: Trace didn't force them to ruin themselves. Instead, he offered them something they wanted (Human magic -- the thing that beat them when they invaded the mainland before) and let them destroy themselves. He offered magic to "heal" their ailing King, probably knowing that the magic would actually continue to weaken the King. A weak King lets him take further advantage of the Generals, who are going to chase other strengths in order to save face in light of the King's weakness. It's really pretty clever.
True it is clever. However I doubt that Trace was alone in wanting the genocide. The new Templar leader seemed to want it too.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#26 Post by Qwe304 »

Hulk10 wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:30 am But wasn't Saria murdered by wolf keidran that seemed like an act of war.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#27 Post by Technic[Bot] »

avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm *laugh* I do like that. It kind of makes the whole thing something of an action-comedy. Randall is just stuck on this island and he has to figure out how he's going to pull off this whole infiltration, but all he really knows anything about is architecture. He's not actually a spy, he's just a nerdy schlub who got stuck with this assignment and his overbearing, psychotic boss has placed the whole responsibility on his wholly-unprepared shoulders.
Well he almost succeded in destroying the Basitins. Being stopped by sheer coincidence. If Keith and her
fiancee had not reunited in the isles, even if only for a couple days, the tower would have been, eventually, finished and the Basitian empire destroyed. Pretty good for a someone who has no idea how to do his work right?
And i think it adds to the "funny" factor of his tale.
avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm Albion Alabaster being Trace's "inside man" would resolve one of the comic's strange curiosities. So Keith was exiled -- something Alabaster was very much involved in -- and the condition of his return was to bring back the Grand Templar. This would have been pretty concurrent with Trace's actual coup, so the Grand Templar at the time was Mary Silverlock, but everyone seemed to act like they'd meant Trace Legacy all along. If Alabaster was Trace's man on the island, then Alabaster may have already been aware of the plans for the coup and expected Trace to be the Grand Templar by the time Keith could possibly return (as much as Alabaster personally hoped Keith would die horribly out there among the "barbarians").
Well they said Grand templar, did not specified WHICH one. In any case even if they knew of the coup all along why would they want to get Trace back? I mean what for? It is not like they could have know some eldritch mask would decide to erase his memories, and hook him with a middle age tigress, simply to score some extra points at a cosmic tabletop game.

Or did they???
[Dramatic drums]
No. Probably not. (But is a cool idea imho)

avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm That's the thing. Trace's goal was obviously genocide. In order to justify it, he needed pretense. Trace needed the war. That would be the only way to justify the eradication of the Keidran to everyone else -- it might even be the only way to eradicate the Keidran. He might need them to be near enough the Towers to do...something. Whatever it is they do. So he'd need the Keidran to invade. So Trace's actions were all designed to provoke a response, but never to go so far as to make it obvious that he'd provided the casus belli. In effect, Trace manipulated the war into happening, using the Wolves as catspaws to eliminate his opposition and give the Humans reason to want to fight the Keidran. Through it all, the Templar maintained plausible deniability. The Wolves made all these choices on their own (or so far as we know). All Trace really did was give them a little push. The same with the Basitins: Trace didn't force them to ruin themselves. Instead, he offered them something they wanted (Human magic -- the thing that beat them when they invaded the mainland before) and let them destroy themselves. He offered magic to "heal" their ailing King, probably knowing that the magic would actually continue to weaken the King. A weak King lets him take further advantage of the Generals, who are going to chase other strengths in order to save face in light of the King's weakness. It's really pretty clever.
Did not all towers were supposed to, one way or another, revert Keidran/basitin to a primitive state. Making them perfect slaves incapable of defending? Or isthat simply my impression. So yeah war is easier. Also yes it is pretty clear old trace was some genious psycho hell bent on total anihilation...
That makes him sound like a final fantasy villain... curious.
amenon wrote:
True it is clever. However I doubt that Trace was alone in wanting the genocide. The new Templar leader seemed to want it too.
As far as we know. The templar order are a bunch of racist whose main work is killing Keidran. They sometimes do police work and some political intrigue to spice their resumés. And Trace was the Grand wizard Templar orquestating everything.

Also Traces hate seem to be contained to only wolf Keidran. He spared Keith fiancee once, before becoming good-guy Trace, just after routing a wolf camp. (Can't remember the exact page thougth) So maybe his plans are not ensuring complete global Kidran extintion.
But who knows?
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Re: Orchard Valley

#28 Post by Hulk10 »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:39 am
avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm *laugh* I do like that. It kind of makes the whole thing something of an action-comedy. Randall is just stuck on this island and he has to figure out how he's going to pull off this whole infiltration, but all he really knows anything about is architecture. He's not actually a spy, he's just a nerdy schlub who got stuck with this assignment and his overbearing, psychotic boss has placed the whole responsibility on his wholly-unprepared shoulders.
Well he almost succeded in destroying the Basitins. Being stopped by sheer coincidence. If Keith and her
fiancee had not reunited in the isles, even if only for a couple days, the tower would have been, eventually, finished and the Basitian empire destroyed. Pretty good for a someone who has no idea how to do his work right?
And i think it adds to the "funny" factor of his tale.
avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm Albion Alabaster being Trace's "inside man" would resolve one of the comic's strange curiosities. So Keith was exiled -- something Alabaster was very much involved in -- and the condition of his return was to bring back the Grand Templar. This would have been pretty concurrent with Trace's actual coup, so the Grand Templar at the time was Mary Silverlock, but everyone seemed to act like they'd meant Trace Legacy all along. If Alabaster was Trace's man on the island, then Alabaster may have already been aware of the plans for the coup and expected Trace to be the Grand Templar by the time Keith could possibly return (as much as Alabaster personally hoped Keith would die horribly out there among the "barbarians").
Well they said Grand templar, did not specified WHICH one. In any case even if they knew of the coup all along why would they want to get Trace back? I mean what for? It is not like they could have know some eldritch mask would decide to erase his memories, and hook him with a middle age tigress, simply to score some extra points at a cosmic tabletop game.

Or did they???
[Dramatic drums]
No. Probably not. (But is a cool idea imho)

avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:34 pm That's the thing. Trace's goal was obviously genocide. In order to justify it, he needed pretense. Trace needed the war. That would be the only way to justify the eradication of the Keidran to everyone else -- it might even be the only way to eradicate the Keidran. He might need them to be near enough the Towers to do...something. Whatever it is they do. So he'd need the Keidran to invade. So Trace's actions were all designed to provoke a response, but never to go so far as to make it obvious that he'd provided the casus belli. In effect, Trace manipulated the war into happening, using the Wolves as catspaws to eliminate his opposition and give the Humans reason to want to fight the Keidran. Through it all, the Templar maintained plausible deniability. The Wolves made all these choices on their own (or so far as we know). All Trace really did was give them a little push. The same with the Basitins: Trace didn't force them to ruin themselves. Instead, he offered them something they wanted (Human magic -- the thing that beat them when they invaded the mainland before) and let them destroy themselves. He offered magic to "heal" their ailing King, probably knowing that the magic would actually continue to weaken the King. A weak King lets him take further advantage of the Generals, who are going to chase other strengths in order to save face in light of the King's weakness. It's really pretty clever.
Did not all towers were supposed to, one way or another, revert Keidran/basitin to a primitive state. Making them perfect slaves incapable of defending? Or isthat simply my impression. So yeah war is easier. Also yes it is pretty clear old trace was some genious psycho hell bent on total anihilation...
That makes him sound like a final fantasy villain... curious.
amenon wrote:
True it is clever. However I doubt that Trace was alone in wanting the genocide. The new Templar leader seemed to want it too.
As far as we know. The templar order are a bunch of racist whose main work is killing Keidran. They sometimes do police work and some political intrigue to spice their resumés. And Trace was the Grand wizard Templar orquestating everything.

Also Traces hate seem to be contained to only wolf Keidran. He spared Keith fiancee once, before becoming good-guy Trace, just after routing a wolf camp. (Can't remember the exact page thougth) So maybe his plans are not ensuring complete global Kidran extintion.
But who knows?
The evil Trace yeah but current Trace is different.
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Re: Orchard Valley

#29 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Hulk10 wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:34 am
The evil Trace yeah but current Trace is different.
Amnesia can come a long way to rehabilitate some people. Don't you think?
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Re: Orchard Valley

#30 Post by Hulk10 »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:51 am
Hulk10 wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:34 am
The evil Trace yeah but current Trace is different.
Amnesia can come a long way to rehabilitate some people. Don't you think?
I do indeed.
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