Some Questions

The comic stuff here.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Message
Author
flibergdde
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 pm
Contact:

Some Questions

#1 Post by flibergdde »

I'm working on a story based off the comic, and have a few questions, if there are answers.
1. How long before the events of twokinds did humans arrive in Mekkan
2. How long before the events of twokinds were the Templars established
3. Does gunpodwer exist in Mekkan

Thanks.

Warrl
Grand Templar
Posts: 1526
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:19 pm

Re: Some Questions

#2 Post by Warrl »

1. If I remember right, they didn't. The humans, keidran, and basitin were all created at about the same time, I think about 1200 years ago, by the Masks. The basitin were created on Basidian Island (and have their own history of perpetual, carefully-managed war not intended to ever produce a victor - although they don't like to talk about how it happened that the Western Basitin control the eastern half of the island and vice versa), but I think the humans and keidran were both created on this continent.

2. No information to date.

3. I don't believe we've seen any sign of it. That doesn't mean it couldn't exist. And if your story is set maybe a couple hundred years later than Flora's time, it would be perfectly reasonable for it to have been discovered/invented and become moderately common in at least one of the four major cultures.

flibergdde
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#3 Post by flibergdde »

Thanks.

flibergdde
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#4 Post by flibergdde »

Warrl wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:03 am 1. If I remember right, they didn't. The humans, keidran, and basitin were all created at about the same time, I think about 1200 years ago, by the Masks. The basitin were created on Basidian Island (and have their own history of perpetual, carefully-managed war not intended to ever produce a victor - although they don't like to talk about how it happened that the Western Basitin control the eastern half of the island and vice versa), but I think the humans and keidran were both created on this continent.

2. No information to date.

3. I don't believe we've seen any sign of it. That doesn't mean it couldn't exist. And if your story is set maybe a couple hundred years later than Flora's time, it would be perfectly reasonable for it to have been discovered/invented and become moderately common in at least one of the four major cultures.
Wait, wasn’t there in the town where they meet Eric, a festival having something to do with the humans arrival? I can’t remember exactly.

User avatar
AmigaDragon
Grand Templar
Posts: 1006
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:20 pm
Location: Far Northern Minnesota
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#5 Post by AmigaDragon »

They came by ship over 300 years ago but it didn't specify whether they came from just another continent or another world.

Gunpowder is less likely to be developed when you have magic available to blow up things.
"Cogito, ergo es. I think, therefore you is." Ray D. Tutto (King of the Moon) to Baron Munschaussen

Cpt.Obvious
Apprentice
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:17 pm

Re: Some Questions

#6 Post by Cpt.Obvious »

AmigaDragon wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:55 pm Gunpowder is less likely to be developed when you have magic available to blow up things.
Depends on how widespread the magic is. It's a bit like when the long bow was replaced by crossbows and later muskets. The bow and arrow was fast and deadly, and the longbow was disgustingly powerful, but they took a lot of training before you got good at aiming or even pulling the heaviest longbows. Compared the crossbow and the musket was very expensive, slow to reload but much easier to aim.

Magic might be "cheap" (not sure about how that works out for the Keidran who's dependent on crystals to power their magic) but it isn't easy or available to everyone. If all you want to do is make things go BOOM or shoot people at a distance then blackpowder makes sense. Once you have a good formula it's rather cheap to manufacture, and it can be used by anyone with a little training.
What may keep it from becoming common is if the powers in control cracks down on anyone fiddling with it. And I can see how for instance the Templar organisation who controls a large part of the human magicians might want to do just that. As for the keidran I guess it depends on how bound by tradition they are. In my opinion the ruling classes of keidran should have less reason to fear the introduction of something like blackpowder. Magic comes at a higher cost for them, and their lives are short enough they might not have time to learn and master the really powerful spells. Supplementing magic with black powder where appropriate probably wouldn't undermine the rulers by much.

The Basitin won't even consider blackpowder or anything like it. They are honor bound to follow tradition, and guns are not traditional on the Basitin island. Or are they? We don't know what secrets are hidden in their history. Perhaps they did invent gunpowder but decided to bury the secret as it risked destroying the nation? Nah, probably not...

Another thing to consider are the dragons. They might have stomped out the knowledge several times through history as they consider it to dangerous to allow children such as the Keidran and Humans to play with it. Again it's probably not the case, but then we know next to nothing about the dragons as a species or what their society looks like. Do they have leaders? Do they have politics? I haven't got a clue...

User avatar
avwolf
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 7006
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:33 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#7 Post by avwolf »

Before this topic ages out, I should probably make some notes here, since we don't have a lot of sourcing for the comments thus far.

First, we know that there are fireworks, so it is not unreasonable to assume gun powder exists, at least in some fashion. Could that be a magical effect and Tom used the word "firework" because the audience would understand it by purpose, even though that actual word would probably not be the one the characters would use because in that case the etymology would be nonsense? Yes, it could actually be magic and not a firework. (It's really quite debatable; the streamers winding around festival-goers strongly suggests "magic," but the smoke clouds in the fireworks behind Trace and Flora suggest black-powder based fireworks. There may be a mixture of both.) In any event, one can certainly make the reasonable argument that blackpowder exists. Do guns exist? We don't know, but we certainly haven't seen any indication of such. They may simply be too expensive and dangerous -- if magic is safer and comparatively less expensive, then firearms are less likely to develop meaningfully; which will keep them expensive, dangerous, and rare.

Second, there's only the one continent (and the Basidian Isle, of course). Humans are from the eastern side (-ish) of the continent. The story is being told of the first contact between Humans and (Wolf) Keidran; the Humans sailed there, so the Wolves originally assumed Humans were from somewhere else in the world, not realizing that they were really just from a difficult-to-reach-by-foot section of the same continent. The best I've got from Tom is from a comment on DA:
Tom wrote:Most Keidran believe Humans originated from some other far off continent because they came on ships and established a colony near Keidran borders. In actual fact, Humans and Keidran originated both on the same continent, just at opposite ends. Humans took ships and migrated west, creating a settlement near modern-day Wreathwood. At the same time, Keidran were migrating east and saw ships "invading" their territory. This was the first encounter between Humans and Keidran.
It's worth considering that the most recent world map (where the comment above is taken from) is generally considered more-or-less canon, and it only has a single continent.

As others have noted, we don't know much about the founding of the Templar, though they have been around for a fairly long time; certainly longer than Trace's entire lifetime.
Image

User avatar
Technic[Bot]
Grand Templar
Posts: 1246
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:48 pm
Location: México
Fav. Twokinds Character: Raine!
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#8 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Wait in Too late, Once Again Eric ship blew up. Did it not?

Granted it was because of the alcohol (Why they gave Keith a few crates of Rum so concentrated that it is explosive is beyond me) but if that kind of chemistry exist i think they are not too far away from muskets and hand-canons.
There are three things that motivate people: Money, fear and love.
Links to my ramblings:
Twokinds [of] data
PhpBB in the age of facebook
If you are new to this phpBB thing:
BBCode guide

User avatar
avwolf
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 7006
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:33 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#9 Post by avwolf »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:57 amGranted it was because of the alcohol (Why they gave Keith a few crates of Rum so concentrated that it is explosive is beyond me) but if that kind of chemistry exist i think they are not too far away from muskets and hand-canons.
Ehh, I don't know. You can get a pretty darn good explosion out of grain dust, and that's not what we'd normally conceptualize as a stepping stone to the musket. (It technically is, as are many of the discoveries of agriculture, but not from a chemical standpoint, more of a societal one.) That said, most forms of distillation do require some amount of understanding of chemistry (freeze distilling, at the very least, does not). As we don't know how Basidian alcohol is manufactured, it's tough to use it as a point of conjecture for other technologies.

I can't think of any time we've simply seen cannons, which would be introduced before muskets (in our world, the cannon dates back to the twelfth or thirteenth century, and hand cannons from the late thirteenth; true muskets would be significantly later: in the sixteenth century). I'd have certainly expected the Basitins to field cannons if they existed, since the Basitin military cannot use magic as a crutch as Humans and Keidran can (as previously discussed, magic would presumably retard firearm development).
Image

User avatar
Technic[Bot]
Grand Templar
Posts: 1246
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:48 pm
Location: México
Fav. Twokinds Character: Raine!
Contact:

Re: Some Questions

#10 Post by Technic[Bot] »

avwolf wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:46 am Ehh, I don't know. You can get a pretty darn good explosion out of grain dust, and that's not what we'd normally conceptualize as a stepping stone to the musket. (It technically is, as are many of the discoveries of agriculture, but not from a chemical standpoint, more of a societal one.) That said, most forms of distillation do require some amount of understanding of chemistry (freeze distilling, at the very least, does not). As we don't know how Basidian alcohol is manufactured, it's tough to use it as a point of conjecture for other technologies.

I can't think of any time we've simply seen cannons, which would be introduced before muskets (in our world, the cannon dates back to the twelfth or thirteenth century, and hand cannons from the late thirteenth; true muskets would be significantly later: in the sixteenth century). I'd have certainly expected the Basitins to field cannons if they existed, since the Basitin military cannot use magic as a crutch as Humans and Keidran can (as previously discussed, magic would presumably retard firearm development).
My point was that gunpowder technology was not too far from appearing. And that they probably have enough knowledge about chemistry to start the research. Give them a couple hundred years tops and there will be cannons.
There are three things that motivate people: Money, fear and love.
Links to my ramblings:
Twokinds [of] data
PhpBB in the age of facebook
If you are new to this phpBB thing:
BBCode guide

Warrl
Grand Templar
Posts: 1526
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:19 pm

Re: Some Questions

#11 Post by Warrl »

Cannons are a serious pain in the [censored] to haul around. One competent mage may be as good as several cannons. The mage needs less specialized, less perishable supplies (wet gunpowder doesn't do well), and if you have to cut and run he can do so himself - unlike the cannons.

So you never start with the cannons.

So you never figure out how to make them better.

So you never develop the hand-cannon. Which is the prelude to the musket and pistol.

Post Reply