Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

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AboutLastNight
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Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#1 Post by AboutLastNight »

I find it confusing. Apologies if I'm taking this somewhere you probably wouldn't have bothered to think about.

Let's just say you have been warned.

So if Keith is totally in love with Natani, technically Keith is straight, since Natani was born a girl.
But that being said, if he knows Natani has the mind of a guy, does that make him gay? (I guess the same would also apply to Natani, as Natani is totally in love with Keith, but has the mid of a guy [yet also another half being still feminine]))

It's... just confusing for me to think about. It hurts my brain.

Thanks.
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#2 Post by Cpt.Obvious »

Don't worry about it, it's confusing for them to...

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#3 Post by AboutLastNight »

Cpt.Obvious wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:44 pm Don't worry about it, it's confusing for them to...
Okay I just hope this gets ironed out
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#4 Post by Cyon »

WHY IS THERE A LINK TO A PICTURE OF AN IRON???
Who even looks at signatures anyways?

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#5 Post by NuclearBird »

Cyon wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:46 pm WHY IS THERE A LINK TO A PICTURE OF AN IRON???
BECAUSE!
If the universe is infinite, does that mean that there is a version of me out there who's thinking the exact same thing?

While we're on the topic of alternate universes, is there one where I'm a lawyer? If yes, then I may be more evil than I thought.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#6 Post by aitaituo »

What makes a mind male or female? Let's ignore the validity of the question and just try to name any particulars, since at least in the comic there is some kind of definite difference per Natani's situation. I don't think attraction to a woman who [insert your culture's male gender stereotypes here] means that you are consciously or unconsciously homosexual or the object of your affection any less female.

Keith is clearly attracted to Natani's lady parts. If anyone's homosexual in the relationship, it would be Natani, I guess. She certainly considers herself a manly man who tells manly stories after her magical manly adventures and a lot of her reservations about liking Keith romantically specifically because of her uniquely manly situation.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#7 Post by Warrl »

AboutLastNight wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:36 pm I find it confusing. Apologies if I'm taking this somewhere you probably wouldn't have bothered to think about.

Let's just say you have been warned.

So if Keith is totally in love with Natani, technically Keith is straight, since Natani was born a girl.
But that being said, if he knows Natani has the mind of a guy, does that make him gay? (I guess the same would also apply to Natani, as Natani is totally in love with Keith, but has the mid of a guy [yet also another half being still feminine]))

It's... just confusing for me to think about. It hurts my brain.

Thanks.
IMHO the above-quoted message is an example of trying to figure out how to make the territory match the map.

Accept that the map isn't all that accurate and misses a lot of details, and it gets a lot easier to deal with unusual cases.

(An analytical model does NOT get simpler. I put gender identity, sexual attraction, and romantic attraction each on its own two-dimensional grid. Throw in intersex for a stray dimension. Then we can get into fetishes and "kinks"... and in the TwoKinds universe adjust for inclination, or lack thereof, toward cross-species attractions... but if you aren't trying to build a model that can reasonably-accurately account for everyone, you don't really need to bother with all that.)

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#8 Post by AboutLastNight »

aitaituo wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:54 am What makes a mind male or female? Let's ignore the validity of the question and just try to name any particulars, since at least in the comic there is some kind of definite difference per Natani's situation. I don't think attraction to a woman who [insert your culture's male gender stereotypes here] means that you are consciously or unconsciously homosexual or the object of your affection any less female.

Keith is clearly attracted to Natani's lady parts. If anyone's homosexual in the relationship, it would be Natani, I guess. She certainly considers herself a manly man who tells manly stories after her magical manly adventures and a lot of her reservations about liking Keith romantically specifically because of her uniquely manly situation.
Okay. Thanks.
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#9 Post by Niara »

Simplest answer is, Keith is attracted, at all levels (including physically and mentally), to Natani. Keith he has been seen to be physically attracted to female forms, but openly acknowledges Natai as male in person. Keith is Bisexual (A thing of which there are degrees and levels of preference balance).

Natani professes attraction to females, and has been seen in the past to admire or appreciate female forms... but also is attracted to Keith at all levels (including mentally and physically), and is gradually becoming more comfortable with embracing this. Natani is Bisexual (A thing of which there are degrees and levels of preference balance).

Does this mean that Keith or Natani are attracted to any physically appealing male or female? No, it doens't; Keith may even be the only male in the world that Natani is physically attracted to, alongside appreciating females; that's still bisexual.


I suspect both parties would find it easier to dispense with the effort of putting tags and labels and boxes on things, in their particular case... but if you want simple, direct and uncomplicated answers, those are your most straight forward ones that are still true and accurate.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#10 Post by GaySailors »

Keith and Natani are about as close as you can get in a relationship without actually saying the word. I have no doubts in my mind that if Natani finally got past her psychological barrier and accept herself as a physical woman, I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with sex.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#11 Post by AboutLastNight »

Niara wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:39 pm Simplest answer is, Keith is attracted, at all levels (including physically and mentally), to Natani. Keith he has been seen to be physically attracted to female forms, but openly acknowledges Natai as male in person. Keith is Bisexual (A thing of which there are degrees and levels of preference balance).

Natani professes attraction to females, and has been seen in the past to admire or appreciate female forms... but also is attracted to Keith at all levels (including mentally and physically), and is gradually becoming more comfortable with embracing this. Natani is Bisexual (A thing of which there are degrees and levels of preference balance).

Does this mean that Keith or Natani are attracted to any physically appealing male or female? No, it doens't; Keith may even be the only male in the world that Natani is physically attracted to, alongside appreciating females; that's still bisexual.


I suspect both parties would find it easier to dispense with the effort of putting tags and labels and boxes on things, in their particular case... but if you want simple, direct and uncomplicated answers, those are your most straight forward ones that are still true and accurate.
That's what I was looking for, thanks.
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#12 Post by AmigaDragon »

Niara wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:39 pm Natani professes attraction to females, and has been seen in the past to admire or appreciate female forms...
When was this?
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#13 Post by GaySailors »

AmigaDragon wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:28 am
Niara wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:39 pm Natani professes attraction to females, and has been seen in the past to admire or appreciate female forms...
When was this?
Maybe they're thinking about when Kat expressed her willingness to be bicurious? She hasn't really shown anything like that though.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#14 Post by Warrl »

Niara wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:39 pm Natani professes attraction to females, and has been seen in the past to admire or appreciate female forms...
1. Nat for a long time presented as male, but with a secret to be protected. NOT professing and displaying interest in females would have seemed abnormal and attracted unwanted attention.

2. I'm convinced that in social species, rather more same-sex attraction is normal - including in people who never have reason to doubt they are heterosexual - than most people think.

3. Nat may actually be bisexual.

4. There's also such a thing as evaluating the competition and where one stands in comparison to it. The standards by which a female would evaluate themselves and other females as sexual competitors would - of necessity - be similar to the standards by which males would evaluate them as potential mates.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#15 Post by GaySailors »

Warrl wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:26 pm
Niara wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:39 pm Natani professes attraction to females, and has been seen in the past to admire or appreciate female forms...
1. Nat for a long time presented as male, but with a secret to be protected. NOT professing and displaying interest in females would have seemed abnormal and attracted unwanted attention.

2. I'm convinced that in social species, rather more same-sex attraction is normal - including in people who never have reason to doubt they are heterosexual - than most people think.
I'm not so sure I agree, definitely not with the second statement.

On the first, perhaps if she wanted to act like a man in-front of friends, but that would be ingenuine to my knowledge. Doing so would just be for cover rather than heart felt.

On the second, that's a pretty flat no. Both preferences are highly taboo though not illegal (at least not in human land). Unless you're a wolf I suppose.
There's a fairly large amount of evidence to support this, but I can throw around a few, more in depth piece hints off of the top of my head.
Spoiler!
The first being this page (904):
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Obvious implications there.
The second being this page (452):
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A bit less obvious implication there.
For anyone who picked up later or doesn't remember, the "strange" and "weird" General they're talking about specifically is Alaric. Even more specifically, the statue of Keith he made. Even MORE specifically, the nude statue of Keith he made. I feel like the reason they're talking about Alaric in particular is pretty self explanatory. Aside from them dodging the name of it and just referring to him as "like that", it's made clear that it certainly isn't normal for them.

More importantly, it's important to remember context. In my opinion, the timeline this takes place in social era similar to the United States' in the early 1800s. Species mixing is uncommon and generally frowned upon, even if it's consenting. I can see it also being illegal or punishable. Slaves still exist, keidren are often seen as beasts and hated, and women are seen as exploitable objects in some cultures. From this alone, I would bargain that it isn't much of a stretch to imply that, while there might not be direct public hate, there isn't as much indifference towards non-heterosexuals that a more progressive culture would seem to have. I will say though, in non-Wolf /(Keidren?) cultures, women seem to be fairly equal to men in terms of how they're seen as and treated, the Basitins more so than anyone else. Men don't seem to just pick and choose what women they want and "use" them like some brutes used to do, but treat them with a high amount of respect, even in the workforce. Genuine interest and love seem plentiful compared to giving her the good ol' 1 2 "you're my wife now".

A bit of a read, but I think the claims are at least somewhat justified, especially knowing Tom's rather unfortunate history with these types of social climates.

Thoughts?

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