Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

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Warrl
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#16 Post by Warrl »

GaySailors wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:03 am
Warrl wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:26 pm2. I'm convinced that in social species, rather more same-sex attraction is normal - including in people who never have reason to doubt they are heterosexual - than most people think.
I'm not so sure I agree, definitely not with the second statement.

On the second, that's a pretty flat no. Both preferences are highly taboo though not illegal (at least not in human land). Unless you're a wolf I suppose.
The fact of the extreme form being taboo is irrelevant to the question of how common even the extreme form is, let alone how common lesser forms are. Adultery and premarital sex have been taboo - and common - in most human societies for approximately as long as the concept of marriage has existed.

But I would add that I think you're seeing a two- or three-position switch where I'm seeing multi-dimensional gradients. (Why I see multi-dimensional gradients, and details of the dimensions, I think I've covered in this forum and aren't really needed in this particular thread.) Attraction to other people need not reach the "want to have sex with him/her" level, to exist. And there are strong evolutionary advantages, in social species, to having a certain amount of attraction to people of the sort you'll be working with in your normal daily activities.

(Although I'd grant that maybe I should have specified "social species with sex-based division of labor".)

(And dangit, my web browser has again decided that I'm secretly British, and wants a u in "labor". One moment... okay, browser scolded.)

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GaySailors
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#17 Post by GaySailors »

I never said that it being taboo made it less common, just that the societal climate they're in isn't exactly openly comfortable with the concept of homosexuality or trans-species relationships. Them wanting/having sex is completely irrelevant, I never intended to imply that it only applied to sexual natures. The evolutionary reasoning to prefer people of your own race (or species in this case) or not is irrelevant as well, nor does it having having advantages.

None of this changes how society simply deems the concept itself. The justification and reasoning for why it exists or how common the sexuality is is a completely separate argument I never intended to touch. I was just providing examples of how the universe Twokinds exists in isn't as progressive as it might seem. After all, many do buy keidren or humans for slavery, some of which is sexual, and others are in dedicated relationships, so there's no doubt in my mind that holding feelings for another species exists. To what scale, I don't know. But I have a feeling that at the very least a human would get odd looks or discriminatory treatment for being in a relationship with a fox or vice versa. I can't say there are any laws we know of making it illegal, but Flora has been described as having "a human fetish" by other keidren.

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ILJolly
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#18 Post by ILJolly »

AboutLastNight wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:36 pm I find it confusing. Apologies if I'm taking this somewhere you probably wouldn't have bothered to think about.

Let's just say you have been warned.

So if Keith is totally in love with Natani, technically Keith is straight, since Natani was born a girl.
But that being said, if he knows Natani has the mind of a guy, does that make him gay? (I guess the same would also apply to Natani, as Natani is totally in love with Keith, but has the mid of a guy [yet also another half being still feminine]))

It's... just confusing for me to think about. It hurts my brain.

Thanks.
I think Natani don't have the mind of a guy. She wants to be strong as her brother is (or like a male), and she thinks that being a girl is a weakness, so she DON'T WANT to be a girl because she want to be strong, and for this reason she's ignoring her feminine part (the younger her while she is not conscious in the ship). She's starting to accept that part of her, but she's still not ready for sex maybe because she was thinking about herself as a male long since.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#19 Post by GaySailors »

ILJolly wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:10 am I think Natani don't have the mind of a guy. She wants to be strong as her brother is (or like a male), and she thinks that being a girl is a weakness, so she DON'T WANT to be a girl because she want to be strong, and for this reason she's ignoring her feminine part (the younger her while she is not conscious in the ship).
It's a fair way to look at it. Up until their tragedy, she did have the mind of a girl as far as we know, but it was only after she wanted to become strong like her brother that the mentality adapted. To a degree. The link ensured that she began to think what Zen thought because of her vulnerability at the time: "A part of [Zen] will always think of us as his helpless baby sister. And the link burned that into your mind". But we also learn that, in the page right after, Natani cut off her hair and stuff because she liked it a bit. She doesn't hate the idea of being a woman, and I feel that after meeting Keith, she might be a bit more open to her femininity than she would have normally.

That being said, I'm sure Keith would end up wearing the dress.

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amenon
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#20 Post by amenon »

"Having a guy's mind" is how Natani still puts it, despite being more comfortable with the body. Anything's possible, but I wouldn't bet on that changing.
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#21 Post by GaySailors »

I was refering more to this. That and the pages around it.

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#22 Post by Warrl »

We keep trying to simplify things that aren't simple. Just in the matter of gender identity there are:
* seeing oneself as the gender that matches one's naturally-equipped external sexual characteristics
* seeing oneself as the other gender
* seeing oneself as both, simultaneously
* seeing oneself as emphatically neither
* seeing oneself as having a gender, but not caring which
* not caring about whether one even has a gender

And some people move around among these categories...

(I find it simpler to use the first two categories as the labels on a set of X/Y axes... then all six categories are fuzzily-defined areas on the coordinate plane.)

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ILJolly
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#23 Post by ILJolly »

AboutLastNight wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:36 pm I find it confusing. Apologies if I'm taking this somewhere you probably wouldn't have bothered to think about.

Let's just say you have been warned.

So if Keith is totally in love with Natani, technically Keith is straight, since Natani was born a girl.
But that being said, if he knows Natani has the mind of a guy, does that make him gay? (I guess the same would also apply to Natani, as Natani is totally in love with Keith, but has the mid of a guy [yet also another half being still feminine]))

It's... just confusing for me to think about. It hurts my brain.

Thanks.
After some deep thought about this I think the question is:

Is it really important if Natani or Keith are "straight" or "gay" if they love each other?

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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#24 Post by Cpt.Obvious »

ILJolly wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:38 am
AboutLastNight wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:36 pm I find it confusing. Apologies if I'm taking this somewhere you probably wouldn't have bothered to think about.

Let's just say you have been warned.

So if Keith is totally in love with Natani, technically Keith is straight, since Natani was born a girl.
But that being said, if he knows Natani has the mind of a guy, does that make him gay? (I guess the same would also apply to Natani, as Natani is totally in love with Keith, but has the mid of a guy [yet also another half being still feminine]))

It's... just confusing for me to think about. It hurts my brain.

Thanks.
After some deep thought about this I think the question is:

Is it really important if Natani or Keith are "straight" or "gay" if they love each other?
Now that really is cutting through all the BS...
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#25 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Honestly I was very curious about eh "logistics" of their relationship too.
When i first became apparent these two would end up "romantically involved" my train of thought whent like this:
I wrote:So ok Natani feels male but is falling for Keith, so even thoguht anatomically female, She would see himself as gay right? But then Keith seems straight so he could simply "pretend" to be gay for her. But if Keith truly believes Natani is male, with a female body, then wouldn't he be gay too?
At the end of the day I realized my whole train of thought was circular so i decided to just roll with the story.

On the other hand both come from weird societies and i find interesting how will that play out. Basitins in thewords of other characters "prudish" and I can't imagine them being ok with their ambassador maybe being gay and "consorting" a wolf. On the other hand wolves seem to consider females as inferior so even if no one realizes Natani is biologicaly female I do not think they will be fine and dandy with one of their assasins not being male and being "in love" with the target.

However neither seems like would care for such frivolities and like someone already said it:
ILJolly wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:38 am
After some deep thought about this I think the question is:
Is it really important if Natani or Keith are "straight" or "gay" if they love each other?
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Re: Still unclear on Keith and Natani's *ahem* relationship

#26 Post by Soulking »

So possible theory here, I get this based on the fact the comic seems to hint at it... Natani spent so much time relating strength to being a man. Obvious mix of brute strength instead of willpower and dexterity and dedication. She is so afraid of the typical idea of being a women being weak (obvious misnomer) that if she is seen as who she really is she will lose the ability of intimidation which is key to an assassin. Also to the fact that she talks about her mind being damaged with her soul after that attack that when her brother filled in the gaps she also took those masculine qualities. She talks about how she liked the feeling. It seems to be connected back to strength through man looking. It seems when she can understand that you can be both feminine and strong (wonder women) she will accept fully who she is and give Keith the relationship they both OBVIOUSLY want.

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