Comic for May 27th, 2017: Realizing the Perks

[Nova]

Hey, I have a secret preview for the next page of the comic: http://twokinds.deviantart.com/art/Keit ... -144398196

*cough cough*

[MuonNeutrino]

Am I seriously the only one who still thinks that Keith and Natani having sex would be grossly inappropriate given Natani's backstory?

Nope, not the only one. I think that after his talk with his younger self he might become open to the idea *eventually*, but not yet. I see that talk as a *starting point* for a character arc, not as a conclusion to one.

[Hayate]

Am I seriously the only one who still thinks that Keith and Natani having sex would be grossly inappropriate given Natani's backstory?

Nope, not the only one. I think that after his talk with his younger self he might become open to the idea *eventually*, but not yet. I see that talk as a *starting point* for a character arc, not as a conclusion to one.

I would be very surprised if they actually went that far right here... It seems to soon for that. Its good to see Nat more comfortable with their body though, at least they can joke about it and not hide it.

[Cyon]

Am I seriously the only one who still thinks that Keith and Natani having sex would be grossly inappropriate given Natani's backstory?

Nat spent several years being strongly opposed to her body. Going so far as to not even seek any form of sexual release during estrus. She has spent most of her screen time displaying her hatred for her body, but now that she had a 5 minute conversation with her imagination while in a coma she's A-ok with being female? But more so, to such an extent to have sex with Keith?

The hell is this?

Yeah, I don't reckon that they could pull it off in the first evening after she left her coma. As with most things, it takes time for characters to change. I hope that this will just go in the direction of fun and games, probably only teasing at Natani's newfound comfort zone. It shouldn't be a serious sexual encounter at this point, but more self-discovery.

[GaySailors]

I feel like I discussed this before, but oh well.

Natani's backstory is relevant, but not as much. Shes accepted her body for what it is and is willing to work with it. It might seem strange that she might be willing to go that far, but think about it.

Her last actions before passing out were, in order: Kissing Keith, linking tails with Keith, sparing with Keith, indirectly calling Keith cute, and then talking with Zen immediately before she passes out. All of this a good while after she said she never planed on having sex, which I might say isn't as strong anymore. Shes said that she hates her body because it made her feel weak and feels like it controls her. In particular, she hates estrus as it does in fact physically control her. While there isn't a solution besides Keith for solving it, the whole "feeling weak" thing is debatable.

I would say that, separated from Zen, her attitude HAS changed, and its done so at a decent pace. The dream was just the climax of that change. She clearly isn't happy that shes a girl, but shes accepting it. I don't see it as a strange time to make an advance, not after all they just went through. She might still dislike her body, its true, and it will probably take time getting used to it, but based on the chemistry they hold together, I don't think this is too far out of the field.

When would be a more appropriate time than now? What else would have to happen until it isn't "too quick"? More flirting? Sure, we could wait until she doesn't attempt to cover up the fact that shes female and has some time with Keith, but in her own words, "This body is mine. And my past is a part of me". She might not be fully comfortable, but she feels in control, and I don't think she needs to get romantically closer for this to happen.

Shes wanted Keith since before the boat incident, albeit not sexually, but she seemed completely happy with Keith when they were on the docks.

[MuonNeutrino]

I would say that, separated from Zen, her attitude HAS changed, and its done so at a decent pace. The dream was just the climax of that change.

I think that this is the core of where we see things differently. I agree that Natani's attitudes have been changing, but I don't see the dream as the climax of that change. I see that change as being about accepting that he's allowed to be romantically attracted towards Keith, not about accepting his body, and I see the climax of that change as being the *bath* scene, not the dream. Note that up until and through the bath scene, it's all been about *emotions* - giving himself permission to feel the way he does about Keith. Even as late as the middle of the bath scene, he makes a crack about not being sure if it's genuine or just that "female body" - that's not someone who's coming to accept their body.

I see that *first* set of changes as concluding with the bath scene, at which point Natani has accepted to himself that he's allowed to feel attracted to Keith and can accept the possibility of being in a relationship, even if he doesn't want to call it that. But up through that point, none of that arc has had anything to do with sexuality or Natani's body, outside of the hormone-addled estrus period. In fact, half of Natani's hangup that *required* that whole character arc is because he so fixedly sees himself as male that he thought he therefore wasn't allowed to feel attracted towards another male. That first arc is all about Natani's changing feelings towards *Keith*, not himself. *Emotionally*, that arc wouldn't have had to have been much different if they *were* both physically males - the same core hangup of "am I allowed/can I admit to feeling attracted to this person" could have operated pretty much the same if it were two 'normal' gay guys who didn't want to admit it. The character journey there didn't hinge on what set of bits Natani has.

It's only now, with the flashback scene, that the question of Natani's gender has come front and center as a topic of potential attitude modification. I think this is the start of a *second*, related but not identical, character arc. While Natani's physical/mental gender dichotomy is obviously a very important fact about his character, up until now it's pretty much been as a *condition*, not a dynamic. It's been something he's *avoided* dealing with as much as possible, not something he's grappled with. When his physical gender has had to be dealt with, it's always as something to be hidden, something he doesn't want to think about. When he's had thoughts or desires that have seemed 'girly' to him, they've been rejected because he thinks they don't fit with his mental gender identity. It's only *just now* that he's started to admit that he might not have to automatically reject everything about his body, or that perhaps some of those 'girly' feelings can be accepted as a real part of himself without changing his identity or making him just a 'weak girl'. *Some* of his attitudes have indeed been changing for quite a while, but not the ones associated with his view of femininity or his body - *those* changes are new.

And that's why it feels to me that Natani now being ready to go 'all the way' would be too fast. It feels to me that the dream sequence is the *start* of that particular character journey, not the climax of it. I do think that it opens the door to experimentation (which is what I think this is), and that it could eventually *lead* there (and there's nothing saying it has to take *quite* as many years last time either!), but I think it'll still take at least a little while.

[Schrodinger]

I would say that, separated from Zen, her attitude HAS changed, and its done so at a decent pace. The dream was just the climax of that change.

I think that this is the core of where we see things differently. I agree that Natani's attitudes have been changing, but I don't see the dream as the climax of that change. I see that change as being about accepting that he's allowed to be romantically attracted towards Keith, not about accepting his body, and I see the climax of that change as being the *bath* scene, not the dream. Note that up until and through the bath scene, it's all been about *emotions* - giving himself permission to feel the way he does about Keith. Even as late as the middle of the bath scene, he makes a crack about not being sure if it's genuine or just that "female body" - that's not someone who's coming to accept their body.

I see that *first* set of changes as concluding with the bath scene, at which point Natani has accepted to himself that he's allowed to feel attracted to Keith and can accept the possibility of being in a relationship, even if he doesn't want to call it that. But up through that point, none of that arc has had anything to do with sexuality or Natani's body, outside of the hormone-addled estrus period. In fact, half of Natani's hangup that *required* that whole character arc is because he so fixedly sees himself as male that he thought he therefore wasn't allowed to feel attracted towards another male. That first arc is all about Natani's changing feelings towards *Keith*, not himself. *Emotionally*, that arc wouldn't have had to have been much different if they *were* both physically males - the same core hangup of "am I allowed/can I admit to feeling attracted to this person" could have operated pretty much the same if it were two 'normal' gay guys who didn't want to admit it. The character journey there didn't hinge on what set of bits Natani has.

It's only now, with the flashback scene, that the question of Natani's gender has come front and center as a topic of potential attitude modification. I think this is the start of a *second*, related but not identical, character arc. While Natani's physical/mental gender dichotomy is obviously a very important fact about his character, up until now it's pretty much been as a *condition*, not a dynamic. It's been something he's *avoided* dealing with as much as possible, not something he's grappled with. When his physical gender has had to be dealt with, it's always as something to be hidden, something he doesn't want to think about. When he's had thoughts or desires that have seemed 'girly' to him, they've been rejected because he thinks they don't fit with his mental gender identity. It's only *just now* that he's started to admit that he might not have to automatically reject everything about his body, or that perhaps some of those 'girly' feelings can be accepted as a real part of himself without changing his identity or making him just a 'weak girl'. *Some* of his attitudes have indeed been changing for quite a while, but not the ones associated with his view of femininity or his body - *those* changes are new.

And that's why it feels to me that Natani now being ready to go 'all the way' would be too fast. It feels to me that the dream sequence is the *start* of that particular character journey, not the climax of it. I do think that it opens the door to experimentation (which is what I think this is), and that it could eventually *lead* there (and there's nothing saying it has to take *quite* as many years last time either!), but I think it'll still take at least a little while.

What you are describing is not the climax but a turning point in Natani's character arc. He's come to understand exactly what his without outside influence muddling his memories and has come to accept that this is his body and that's okay. Natani has always been more forward than Keith in their relationship, despite his own hang-ups it's been Natani that's decided when to escalate. So here we have Natani now, out of the closet as it were, and willing to experiment with his significant other in yet another escalation. From my perspective it only fits that a Keidran would have such a rapid pace since the species is known for living fast and dying young. Not to discount your perspective that this is very sudden given that Natani's only made this revelation less than ten hours prior, but this is a narrative leap that I find fits the character well.

[MuonNeutrino]

What you are describing is not the climax but a turning point in Natani's character arc. He's come to understand exactly what his without outside influence muddling his memories and has come to accept that this is his body and that's okay. Natani has always been more forward than Keith in their relationship, despite his own hang-ups it's been Natani that's decided when to escalate. So here we have Natani now, out of the closet as it were, and willing to experiment with his significant other in yet another escalation. From my perspective it only fits that a Keidran would have such a rapid pace since the species is known for living fast and dying young. Not to discount your perspective that this is very sudden given that Natani's only made this revelation less than ten hours prior, but this is a narrative leap that I find fits the character well.

Whether you want to call it a climax or a turning point, it's still a *change*. I agree that the dream and Natani's resulting willingness to experiment in his views of himself and what he may be willing to do is definitely a significant step - I just don't think it should be an effectively instantaneous one, is all. Now, I'm not saying it has to be slow, either. I agree that Keidran will often do things faster than humans would. But it's actually already *been* pretty quick - it may have taken years for us, but in-comic only about a month elapsed from when Natani met Keith until the scene in the baths, and that's not that long, really, to challenge such firmly-held beliefs and attitudes.

Natani is now willing to experiment and is (as always) the one pushing the pace, yes. And given that, I don't think it'll take forever for this to work itself out. A few more days, a week maybe - I'm certainly not arguing that it should have to wait for another decade of strips and month of in-universe time! I just don't think it makes sense for it to take literally one evening to work though that. As Natani says, a single mental pep-talk isn't going to instantly erase years of experience and habits of thought. I agree that it's an evolution in their characters and relationship that makes sense, given where they're at now. I definitely see them being willing to go further than they have in the past with their experimentation here tonight. (That's not hard, really, considering that the most they've done in the past is kiss.) I just don't see them going all the way this very first evening, is all.

[Schrodinger]

What you are describing is not the climax but a turning point in Natani's character arc. He's come to understand exactly what his without outside influence muddling his memories and has come to accept that this is his body and that's okay. Natani has always been more forward than Keith in their relationship, despite his own hang-ups it's been Natani that's decided when to escalate. So here we have Natani now, out of the closet as it were, and willing to experiment with his significant other in yet another escalation. From my perspective it only fits that a Keidran would have such a rapid pace since the species is known for living fast and dying young. Not to discount your perspective that this is very sudden given that Natani's only made this revelation less than ten hours prior, but this is a narrative leap that I find fits the character well.

Whether you want to call it a climax or a turning point, it's still a *change*. I agree that the dream and Natani's resulting willingness to experiment in his views of himself and what he may be willing to do is definitely a significant step - I just don't think it should be an effectively instantaneous one, is all. Now, I'm not saying it has to be slow, either. I agree that Keidran will often do things faster than humans would. But it's actually already *been* pretty quick - it may have taken years for us, but in-comic only about a month elapsed from when Natani met Keith until the scene in the baths, and that's not that long, really, to challenge such firmly-held beliefs and attitudes.

Natani is now willing to experiment and is (as always) the one pushing the pace, yes. And given that, I don't think it'll take forever for this to work itself out. A few more days, a week maybe - I'm certainly not arguing that it should have to wait for another decade of strips and month of in-universe time! I just don't think it makes sense for it to take literally one evening to work though that. As Natani says, a single mental pep-talk isn't going to instantly erase years of experience and habits of thought. I agree that it's an evolution in their characters and relationship that makes sense, given where they're at now. I definitely see them being willing to go further than they have in the past with their experimentation here tonight. (That's not hard, really, considering that the most they've done in the past is kiss.) I just don't see them going all the way this very first evening, is all.

I don't see them going all the way either, this is more the fooling around stage.

[Kitch]

More than ever, I'm convinced that Keith and Natani are going to get caught in a compromising position.

[GaySailors]

I guess I'm looking at this from a different angle. I didn't refer to it as a climax to represent her being comfortable, just that shes comfortable around Keith. When they kissed, she didn't want to admit they were in a relationship, she couldn't come to terms with it.
She still considered that being a female was weak, and that it was wrong to have feelings for a man. She was in self denial. The dream helped convince her that she didn't have to rely on Zen, and that being strong was her own choice, that she didn't have to completely be against her body. Shes comfortable enough to kiss Keith, but not enough to show her body in public.

And she isn't in public.

In the scene before they actually had their big kiss, she acknowledged it was going to fast. But she did it anyways. She even had a second thought against it, hence the small peck of a kiss. She knows she'll laugh it off and pretend it was a joke: and she didn't want that. For a moment, she broke through her psyche, and figured out what she wanted. She was concerned that she didn't know if it was her or her body that was in love with Keith. Right now, I'm pretty sure shes figured out that its her. She might not be comfortable with her body, but I think she knows its really her that loves him, and not because of her body. And honestly, if she loves him enough, I can see her pushing past her doubts. She needs to at some point, and right now is as good of a time as ever. Emotion is high, both of them are happy, and with the help of that dream, she became a bit more comfortable with her body. Perhaps that small push was all she needed to be brave enough to "explore" herself.

But we all know it isn't going to happen in the following pages. Not because of any of the previously mentioned discussions, but because:

[Darekun]

More than ever, I'm convinced that Keith and Natani are going to get caught in a compromising position.

I keep imagining Lynn walking in on them after they crash tonight, and being like

: "What?!? I told you this…"
: "…"
: "Oh well, I'll have a heart attack in the morning."
pulls a blanket over each of them.

As a KatNat shipper I've been kinda </3 lately, but I still think that'd be cute :3

[Phaing]

...

But we all know it isn't going to happen in the following pages. Not because of any of the previously mentioned discussions, but because:

Yeah, that guy, our reminder of just how advanced and repressed a society can be at the same time.

I think the key would be giving him something else to worry about.


Nations at war, political turmoil everywhere you look, and Trace's domestic situation.... day-um! Come to think of it, if Lynn gives this more than a passing thought, I'd have to question his usefulness here.
Not kidding, half this town just got torched just today.

And speaking of Trace's domestic situation, I think I know what the next page will be showing us.
Hope so, anyways

[Loveknowsbest]

To do it or not to do it that is the question whether​ it nobler in the mind for Natani and Keith to take their relationship to the next level or not. She did say whatever happens..happens. which I interpret as Natani being comfortable letting things happen vs not controlling​ what happens. Like the kiss moment, maybe it's a now or never moment. Or maybe​ not, who knows. It wouldn't be that uncomfortable for me to think that would happen.

[avwolf]

Welp, so much for all of my speculations last thread. This feels rather fast to me, but I'll reserve judgement.

The funny thing is, this seems both out of character for Natani and perfectly in character at the same time. It's *exactly* what Natani would do, with his love of teasing Keith and his brash sense of humor... in the case of a Natani who's fully comfortable with his body and its potential sexuality.

Something that struck me about this is Natani's roguish -- almost impish -- playfulness here. It reminded me someone else: Zen.
[aside]

Another thing that amuses me about this is that it's plausibly what Zen would do. Which makes a whole lot of sense

And, amusingly enough to me, I'm not alone. [/aside]

And I thought, for a moment, "it's weird that without Zen there, Natani's more like his brother than ever." Then I realized my error: of course Natani is more like Zen without Zen present. When it is just Natani, Natani has the same sense of humor as Zen (being very close siblings, it'd be more surprising if they didn't have similar senses of humor). Zen's presence doesn't give Natani her sense of humor, Zen gives Natani a sense of...shame is a little strong, but it's the word I'd choose. Zen (for a wealth of reasons, none of which make him a bad person) projected something of a sense of shame on Natani's female body; one that Natani doesn't necessarily actually share. Without Zen, Natani has the clarity to recognize the perks of womanliness, including feeling free to tease someone she cares about instead of feeling that he must hide his feelings behind a cool mask of detachment.


I am awfully late to the party to note it, but I also figured this was leading to a night of cuddling -- I've known my share of folks that that's what they wanted out of spending the night with their romantic interests -- they wanted the physical intimacy but not the sexual intimacy. I will probably say the same in the thread for the next comic, but I'm impressed with how Natani has come to accept that physical intimacy is okay, that it's even something to be desired. It's worth noting that this should feel "fast" to us, even when it's involving someone like Natani: Keidran experience life more...brightly and more rapidly than we do, on account of their shorter lifespans. Also, Natani probably is starting to feel the weight of age: if he's found someone he connects to romantically, he can't afford to wait. That's another lesson that his experience with Laura would have reinforced for him.

I personally tend to feel that this is less about Natani deciding that it's okay to be a woman and more that it's okay to be Natani; a final, conscious acceptance that Natani's body is Natani, that it's not some invasive outside force acting on his mind. She is as she is, with all that entails. Natani's is taking steps on the path of "it's okay to be me" instead of just insisting "it's only okay to be as much of my brother as I can pretend to be." But I'm biased: I've been arguing that Natani's spent a lot of time both deriding and protecting his body because it's what he's got that's really him. No surprise that I'd view this as confirmation that Natani's just coming to accept things that I've felt have been hinted at by the character for some time.


Though we all know exactly where this is leading: Lynn's heart attack, and Keith's next trial for conduct unbecoming a Basitin.