Comic for March 18th, 2017

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xellos
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#61 Post by xellos »

Darekun wrote: That's… how misgendering is usually done, yeah?
Sort of, from what I understand. I'd just like to say that I'm not a part of the trans community and only have secondhand knowledge of gender issues, so I might really be off on this, but from what I've been told misgendering is when someone either assumes or tells you that your sex and gender are the same, when that isn't necessarily true.

That's not what's happening here. Lynn, and Basitins in general, do not care about Natani's gender, how he identifies, or anything else. The only thing that matters is that he is biologically female, and therefore is not allowed to sleep in the same room as a biological male Keidran, just like he couldn't use the male baths. Which, again, raises a lot of issues, especially if the reason is to limit sexual encounters (since it does nothing to stop any gay or lesbian couples). But I don't think it's a misgendering issue.
Again, basing this off secondhand knowledge and not personal experience, sorry if any of my points here are off

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Ddraig
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#62 Post by Ddraig »

xellos wrote:
Darekun wrote: That's… how misgendering is usually done, yeah?
Sort of, from what I understand. I'd just like to say that I'm not a part of the trans community and only have secondhand knowledge of gender issues, so I might really be off on this, but from what I've been told misgendering is when someone either assumes or tells you that your sex and gender are the same, when that isn't necessarily true.
This is my understanding, too. Lynn isn't misgendering, the law specifies physical sex and doesn't speak to anything identified as (remember, this is medieval mindsets).
That's not what's happening here. Lynn, and Basitins in general, do not care about Natani's gender, how he identifies, or anything else. The only thing that matters is that he is biologically female, and therefore is not allowed to sleep in the same room as a biological male Keidran, just like he couldn't use the male baths. Which, again, raises a lot of issues, especially if the reason is to limit sexual encounters (since it does nothing to stop any gay or lesbian couples). But I don't think it's a misgendering issue.
Again, basing this off secondhand knowledge and not personal experience, sorry if any of my points here are off
Basitins seem a little oblivious to same-sex couples. Maybe because there won't be children resulting from such unions, meaning they won't cause 'inefficiencies', to semi-quote Keith. Pretty much Alaric's entire character seems to support the idea that Basitin culture ignores the possibility of same-sex relationships.
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trantor
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#63 Post by trantor »

Post by Ddraig » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:19 pm
what I've been told misgendering is when someone either assumes or tells you that your sex and gender are the same, when that isn't necessarily true.

This is my understanding, too. Lynn isn't misgendering, the law specifies physical sex and doesn't speak to anything identified as (remember, this is medieval mindsets).

That's not what's happening here. Lynn, and Basitins in general, do not care about Natani's gender, how he identifies, or anything else. The only thing that matters is that he is biologically female, and therefore is not allowed to sleep in the same room as a biological male Keidran, just like he couldn't use the male baths. Which, again, raises a lot of issues, especially if the reason is to limit sexual encounters (since it does nothing to stop any gay or lesbian couples). But I don't think it's a misgendering issue.
Again, basing this off secondhand knowledge and not personal experience, sorry if any of my points here are off

Basitins seem a little oblivious to same-sex couples. Maybe because there won't be children resulting from such unions, meaning they won't cause 'inefficiencies', to semi-quote Keith. Pretty much Alaric's entire character seems to support the idea that Basitin culture ignores the possibility of same-sex relationships.
That's what I am thinking too. Lynn only see the physical in this case. And by the way I am also with Darobit
Post by Dadrobit » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:14 am
I gotta say, I'm a little surprised at the number of folks wanting Keith and Natani to just out themselves. Perhaps y'all need to take a step back and look at this from a different perspective.

I get it, it's been actual years for us since we first saw that kiss, http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/809/ but in comic time, it's been barely the blink of an eye.

As far as Natani is concerned, he's only had a few conscious hours to really process their relationship. There was the kiss, Wonderland happened, a burning boat exploded, there was another kiss, a carriage ride, and then here we are. For Natani, it was only hours ago that he asked Keith to not put a label on their relationship. http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/809/

And it was only the previous day that Keith was willing, and indeed desperately bent on dying for a false image of Laura, his last love. http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/758/

Natani really needs another heart to heart talk or two with Keith before there's any open proclamations made. Gender identity issues aside, this just is not a good healthy time in their relationship for such open decrees. Much less so considering the interspecies taboo kerfuffles.
There has been very much action in little time. So a comeout maybe would be too much/too fast for them. They should clear a few things before.

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#64 Post by Warrl »

Ddraig wrote:Basitins seem a little oblivious to same-sex couples. Maybe because there won't be children resulting from such unions, meaning they won't cause 'inefficiencies', to semi-quote Keith.
Apparently they've never noticed that same-sex couples have nearly-all the same romantic drama as heterosexual couples... (the exception being pregnancy scares, which are rather less common and almost-always imply some "cheating" drama as well).
Pretty much Alaric's entire character seems to support the idea that Basitin culture ignores the possibility of same-sex relationships.
And while Alaric was apparently a good general, might he have been a better general if he weren't spending time and energy figuring out how to rig things in Keith's favor?

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#65 Post by FishWeave »

As a transgender make, I will say that even if Lynn isn't trying to- it is misgendering. He may be talking about 'sex', but most people in the comic don't seem to understand that gender can be than sex. This is different than when keith told natani that he couldn't go in the bathhouse. Keith didn't misgender Natani back then, he was just saying to respect the laws. Lynn is saying to respect the laws, and yes, is referring to sex. At the same time, he is purposely using female pronouns. Yes, he means sex, but that doesn't mean Natanis gender identity stops magically existing. Lynn is still misgendering Natani.

I myself don't care if a person does it by accident, but I will still correct them, because it is still misgendering. Does everyone get that? Not doing it on purpose doesn't mean they are not doing it. I think their country, from its laws to its attitude shows a lot of signs of 'if we ignore it, then it doesn't exist'. Sadly, this is an attitude some actual countries have taken. Basically, they get the idea that implementing certain laws will make everyone straight and their genders all match their sex.

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#66 Post by aitaituo »

Ddraig wrote:
xellos wrote:
Darekun wrote: That's… how misgendering is usually done, yeah?
Sort of, from what I understand. I'd just like to say that I'm not a part of the trans community and only have secondhand knowledge of gender issues, so I might really be off on this, but from what I've been told misgendering is when someone either assumes or tells you that your sex and gender are the same, when that isn't necessarily true.
This is my understanding, too. Lynn isn't misgendering, the law specifies physical sex and doesn't speak to anything identified as (remember, this is medieval mindsets).
No, misgendering would be calling Natani a she, which Lynn didn't do here. Lynn didn't even directly refer to Natani.

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Kyrit
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#67 Post by Kyrit »

FishWeave wrote:At the same time, he is purposely using female pronouns. Yes, he means sex, but that doesn't mean Natanis gender identity stops magically existing. Lynn is still misgendering Natani.
Actually, Lynn didn't mention a single pronoun. Unless you're counting "we" and "us", but I'm talking about in reference to Natani specifically. Lynn never once says "she" or "her" or "female." The only one that uses a pronoun in reference to Natani is Keith, and he uses "they."

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#68 Post by FishWeave »

Ah, I donno where I got the idea... Maybe I've been reading this thread too much.

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Aurora
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#69 Post by Aurora »

Keith went thru' a lot of trouble to be able to be a Citizen of his country again, of people that don't even really want him. He's going
to have to make a choice soon, which is more important to him: being Ambassador of a people that don't want him ... or his friends.
And, especially, Natani.

I hope he makes the right choice, when the time comes ...

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#70 Post by FishWeave »

A lot of his country may not want him, but the ruler of that country does. She knows that the Basidian Islands are out of touch with the rest of the world. This caused a bunch of issues for the country, mainly how the templars were able to cause so much damage. Sure, Madelyn and Lynn could continue on their journey without him, but Keith is the one that had experience in this land.

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#71 Post by SirJahar »

And this is is one such example of how being so isolated has let them brainwash themselves. They actualy beleive their is a real reason to seperate people by sex. When Keith has shown us that once you break the programming, that's not the case.

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#72 Post by Shiru »

So the implication thus far has been that Lynn is always sneaking around and keeping an eye on every one and every thing. I would find it hard to believe that he didn't know about this AND the subsequent bathing. And at the time he wouldn't have cared because he wouldn't have known about... what was under Natani's clothes, but at this point, Keith has already broken that law while a Basitin citizen right under Lynn's nose. Seems pretty pointless to enforce it now.

Also, worth noting is that as far as Basitin records are concerned, Natani is male. The King even said so. If Keith can figure that out he's all set to pull an Alaric on this one.

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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#73 Post by Schrodinger »

Shiru wrote:So the implication thus far has been that Lynn is always sneaking around and keeping an eye on every one and every thing. I would find it hard to believe that he didn't know about this AND the subsequent bathing. And at the time he wouldn't have cared because he wouldn't have known about... what was under Natani's clothes, but at this point, Keith has already broken that law while a Basitin citizen right under Lynn's nose. Seems pretty pointless to enforce it now.

Also, worth noting is that as far as Basitin records are concerned, Natani is male. The King even said so. If Keith can figure that out he's all set to pull an Alaric on this one.
I'm not following the logic here. Lynn knows that Natani is female is not allowed to spend the night in the same room as Keith as Basitin law dictates. Any prior clerical errors do not matter since Lynn is now aware of Natani's biology.
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#74 Post by amenon »

Schrodinger wrote:
Shiru wrote:So the implication thus far has been that Lynn is always sneaking around and keeping an eye on every one and every thing. I would find it hard to believe that he didn't know about this AND the subsequent bathing. And at the time he wouldn't have cared because he wouldn't have known about... what was under Natani's clothes, but at this point, Keith has already broken that law while a Basitin citizen right under Lynn's nose. Seems pretty pointless to enforce it now.

Also, worth noting is that as far as Basitin records are concerned, Natani is male. The King even said so. If Keith can figure that out he's all set to pull an Alaric on this one.
I'm not following the logic here. Lynn knows that Natani is female is not allowed to spend the night in the same room as Keith as Basitin law dictates. Any prior clerical errors do not matter since Lynn is now aware of Natani's biology.
I've had the line of thought before that since it's a matter of record that Natani is male, then that's it as far as basitin law is concerned, for how could the records be wrong? :grin: But I don't really think that's the bent of their bureaucracy; the King mentioned correcting the record, and if that was the way they operated, then Cathleen and Cornelius would have probably been okay.

I do agree with Shiru that I'm not sure what the point of trying to enforce it now is, when Lynn knows that Keith has already knowingly violated the law. Clearly that should be a larger concern, legally speaking. The principle of let bygones be bygones? That implies a level of pragmatism that's in line with what we've seen from Lynn, and that might be expected from one of Alaric's -- but then why raise the objection at all? Perhaps just to see how Keith would react to the charge. This tells him a lot about who his new boss is.
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Re: Comic for March 18th, 2017

#75 Post by Thecommander236 »

Dadrobit wrote:
Lynn wrote:Unfortunately, for many, what we are is not a choice we make. We're stuck with the cards life has dealt us.
You know, the obvious subtext of that statement being relevant to both Keith and Natani is obvious, but I wonder if Lynn recites that as an affirmation that he himself is not content with his own hand...
I think that's what this is about. Lynn isnt really petty enough to let it get to him, but I think some part of hir is thinking "if I can't be what I want to be, then why should I let you get away with this?" Again, I don't think that's the full story of how he is feeling, but it's probably part of it.
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