Do you think the Comic is too predictable

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Grumar
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Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#1 Post by Grumar »

Long time reader, once active forum user back again because I've regained interest in the series and I have to ask, does anyone else find the series becoming way too predictable, I mean no offence to tom he clearly put a lot of thought and work into the story/dialog but it seems like I know what's coming every time it happens, the story seems to drive itself more off of fan service to furries (which I am and mean no disrespect) than it does an actual story. From the very beginning amensia...really...THAT plot device again...I REALLY haven't seen that enough...I know I'm coming across as a dick but seriously the art has improved over the years so it's time for the story telling to improve as well fan service can only carry a story so far until it become soft core ecchi trash.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#2 Post by Dadrobit »

Ehhhh, parts of it certainly are, but individual segments, maybe not so much.

Like in regards to any fighting going on in the comic, at this point it's like watching the A-Team. Lots of action, but nobody dies. Tom simply doesn't want folks straight up dying in his comic anymore. Easy predictions there.

Or how a bunch of folks surmised that wolves were behind the attack, sure, especially after it was hinted with farmer Rinehold and the warning being brushed off. Even then though, it was a highly contested assumption.

But parts like Rose being present at the estate? Kyrit got a very good guess in there, but even in there he calls it far fetched, and people pretty conclusively agreed that, "Naw, couldn't be, she's gotta be dead by now..."

And Clovis being the intermediary between The Seer and the wolves? Not a single person called that.

So it really depends on what level you're working with. Large scale predictions like: Natani can't be dead. Sure, the comic is predictable.

But stuff like Clovis conspiring with the Seer to get his gender back at the cost of his people? Not nearly so much.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#3 Post by Warrl »

In pretty much any long series not written by George Martin, certain characters have plot armor, certain romantic relationships are nigh-inevitable, et cetera.

Why is this? (And why is Martin being an exception so noteworthy?)

Because, for the most part, that's the way the audience likes it.

"It's a Disney princess movie, so you know how it ends. But you don't know how it gets there." - I actually said that once.

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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#4 Post by LordWeirdo »

I echo the above replies. Yes, tropes are there and can be seen coming miles off; but they became tropes because they work. (As a writer, believe me, I've tried to avoid them—it's seldom worth it in my experience.) But as far as the specifics of plot twists, educated guesses are the best we can do, and those can be thrown out the window as often as not.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#5 Post by Hayate »

I wouldn't say too predictable... If you have been reading the comic and paying attention then you should have a pretty good idea of what's happening and where it's going, just like any story. I really don't understand your issue with how the story is written, off the top of my head I can't think of many stories involving amnesia. Obviously the story is written well and is interesting otherwise there wouldn't be so many readers.
I'll say that yes, a lot of the side art and non-canon stuff can be fan service, but then again that's kinda the point of a lot of it... The comic has romance and some suggestive scenes, but is pretty much free of explicit content.
Anyways, I really like the way the story is going. If it was totally unpredictable it probably wouldn't make sense. I think Tom has a decent balance.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#6 Post by Ddraig »

Warrl wrote:In pretty much any long series not written by George Martin, certain characters have plot armor, certain romantic relationships are nigh-inevitable, et cetera.

Why is this? (And why is Martin being an exception so noteworthy?)
Because he's a sadistic [censored] who wants to trample the dreams of everyone and kill anyone remotely likeable
"It's a Disney princess movie, so you know how it ends. But you don't know how it gets there." - I actually said that once.
To be fair, Frozen actually kind of surprised me with its ending, so they do have exceptions (but on the whole I agree with you).
Hayate wrote:I wouldn't say too predictable... If you have been reading the comic and paying attention then you should have a pretty good idea of what's happening and where it's going, just like any story. I really don't understand your issue with how the story is written, off the top of my head I can't think of many stories involving amnesia. Obviously the story is written well and is interesting otherwise there wouldn't be so many readers.
I'll say that yes, a lot of the side art and non-canon stuff can be fan service, but then again that's kinda the point of a lot of it... The comic has romance and some suggestive scenes, but is pretty much free of explicit content.
Anyways, I really like the way the story is going. If it was totally unpredictable it probably wouldn't make sense. I think Tom has a decent balance.
I feel like amnesia would be considered the 'easy way out' when it comes to explaining the comic's world without making it overtly obvious that it's being explained to the reader. Overall, though, I haven't seen much in the way of amnesiac heroes, if any, outside of this comic.

When it comes to predictability, sometimes you can simply tell how the story is heading by the events and a little bit of logic. The only way you wouldn't be able to predict anything is if the author never gave you any foreshadowing information (which makes events just seem contrived and WAY TOO CONVENIENT) and if nothing made sense (which has its own problems). It's all about the middle road. Maybe you could have predicted that the wolves did something to the Edinmire, but were they going to be Templars in disguise, wolves in disguise as Templars, wolves without disguise, etc. and were they going to attack the town, assassinate someone, kidnap someone, or appear as a third diplomatic party? Or was Farmer What'sHisName just imagining things? Maybe you can get the gist of what's going to happen in general, but the devil's in the details.

Case in point: Obviously Group B is going to get to Edinmire at some point (and run into trouble because of "Detain all wolves!" attitude) but how will this happen? When? Or are they going to run into a friendly farmer who tells them "You're going where? Oh, you don't want to go there right now. They HATE wolves, heard they locked all their ones up"
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#7 Post by amenon »

One of my favorite things about Tom's writing is how he can take something that could be predictable and tired, and instead comes out with something that's refreshing. My two go-to examples are how Natani reacted to Keith almost killing him, and how Trace took Flora's pregnancy.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#8 Post by Shar »

Grumar wrote:Long time reader, once active forum user back again because I've regained interest in the series and I have to ask, does anyone else find the series becoming way too predictable, I mean no offence to tom he clearly put a lot of thought and work into the story/dialog but it seems like I know what's coming every time it happens, the story seems to drive itself more off of fan service to furries (which I am and mean no disrespect) than it does an actual story. From the very beginning amensia...really...THAT plot device again...I REALLY haven't seen that enough...I know I'm coming across as a dick but seriously the art has improved over the years so it's time for the story telling to improve as well fan service can only carry a story so far until it become soft core ecchi trash.

It seems like you've disliked it from the beginning considering that your bringing up stuff that's from a good many years ago. Seriously though, i feel that the comic has done much much better than most because its progressed in an orderly and logical manner without falling into a cycle like anime tends to do. as the reader you may have a very generalized idea of whats going on but no more than as pertains to the objectives of the group as a whole. Most comics that fall into the category of truly unpredictable tend to fall apart because they are just a manic mess of random events what you need for a GOOD story is logical progression. Checkhov's Gun is likley one of the best theories reguarding the importence of logical progression and how a story can be ruined by too much irrelivent randomness "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there." a few speices that you don't expect are fine but after seeing them you need to understand how they fit into the overall logic and they cannot controdict information given previously or be nothing but meaningless filler. Most importantly of any factor however is Continuaty because as soon as a story starts contradicting itself it is dead in the eyes of its long term fans.

Twokinds has achieved these admirably and done a far better job of it that even some the best professional writers in the industry. Trust me on this i am a ruthless critic when it comes to stories and films but twokinds has struck a very difficult to achieve balance and maintained it for a great length of time. has it mad mistakes? yes, but its made far less than most especially considering how long its been active. Overall its very high quality.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#9 Post by Warrl »

Also consider that - possibly aside from a given writer's first novel - the majority of novels are written from start to finish, and edited, within a one-year period. So the author has to keep track of stuff for only that long (unless it's part of an ongoing series - which most novels aren't). TwoKinds page 1 is dated October 22, 2003 - more than 13 years ago.

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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#10 Post by AegisWolf »

No. I mean, sure, certain elements are predictable, for example, Flora's always going to wind up with Trace, it's obvious no matter at what point in the story this is evaluated, but it never really suffers from it.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#11 Post by Cyon »

AegisWolf wrote:No. I mean, sure, certain elements are predictable, for example, Flora's always going to wind up with Trace, it's obvious no matter at what point in the story this is evaluated, but it never really suffers from it.
Oh hello Aegis! I didn't know you were on here :)

There are bound to be some tropes in the story, but on the whole I kept getting surprised when reading it for the first time. Even now going back to some of the older pages, it's always a fun re-discovery, and I don't see the story becoming banal anytime soon.
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#12 Post by Elemental Templar »

To be honest, the only stories that are truly original are those that are based people's lives:

Nearly every story type in any genre of fiction follows the same formula, as indicated by Joseph Campbell with what's know as The Hero's Journey Diagram. Now I'm not saying that Twokinds follows this exactly (and even if it did, it would still probably still be in one of the earlier acts of the diagram being that the comic is still ongoing) but even with this diagram setting the guidelines you can make any fictional story original through a variety of methods:

Unique World Building

Plot Twists

Altered Perspectives

Memorable Characters

...and many others.
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Those who wait for change, and those who make changes themselves. Which one are you?" -Anonymous

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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#13 Post by Phaing »

Ddraig wrote: Because he's a sadistic [censored] who wants to trample the dreams of everyone and kill anyone remotely likeable
I could not possibly agree more.
That crap isn't even tragedy, if you expect the worst (and who wouldn't in that setting) there are no surprises at all.
Ddraig wrote:Case in point: Obviously Group B is going to get to Edinmire at some point (and run into trouble because of "Detain all wolves!" attitude) but how will this happen? When? Or are they going to run into a friendly farmer who tells them "You're going where? Oh, you don't want to go there right now. They HATE wolves, heard they locked all their ones up"
I actually thought they would be in town, just around the corner, or in the stockade with the other Wolves, or...

Getting just one page a week sure leaves a lot of time for speculation, doesn't it? S:P
Maybe THAT is what kills it for some people... eventually SOMEbody is going to guess it right.
Maybe we shouldn't bother so much with the guessing games?
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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#14 Post by Dianae »

Phaing wrote: I actually thought they would be in town, just around the corner, or in the stockade with the other Wolves, or...

Getting just one page a week sure leaves a lot of time for speculation, doesn't it? S:P
Maybe THAT is what kills it for some people... eventually SOMEbody is going to guess it right.
Maybe we shouldn't bother so much with the guessing games?
Bless your heart, that's one way to go...
But to be honest the fact that we do have these guessing games and that we do have fun doing so, is probably one of the main reasons TwoKinds is as long running as it is.
I only know of one or two authors in modern day that can maintain a clear long narrative while still Having twists and turns that keep the populace active, and actively seeking more.

The biggest example I can think of is an author who knew the story was a long shot. He has taken that "basic" Hero's Journey arc and plotted about 23 books along that arc, each book having it's own mini Hero's Journey Arc. Planned books, 20 Novels+Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to cap it off. So far, 15 books, 22 short stories, 9 graphic novels(5 unique, 4 retreading novels), and working on book 16. All of that is the in-canon work. There is also in the not-quite-canon side there is a set of RPG books written in sections as if the characters were writing the books. his first book was published in April of 2000.

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Re: Do you think the Comic is too predictable

#15 Post by Phaing »

Dianae wrote:...
The biggest example I can think of is an author who knew the story was a long shot. He has taken that "basic" Hero's Journey arc and plotted about 23 books along that arc, each book having it's own mini Hero's Journey Arc. Planned books, 20 Novels+Big Apocalyptic Trilogy to cap it off. So far, 15 books, 22 short stories, 9 graphic novels(5 unique, 4 retreading novels), and working on book 16. All of that is the in-canon work. There is also in the not-quite-canon side there is a set of RPG books written in sections as if the characters were writing the books. his first book was published in April of 2000.
Okay, I don't care if you are wanting me to ask or not, I'm interested.
Who are you talking about?
If its that good, I want a piece of the action. :D
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