Do you think the Comic is too predictable

[Dianae]

Jim Butcher - Dresden Files

it's a urban fantasy setting. The first book is a little slow to roll, but the sense of humor through out the story is pretty good.

Just remembered, the books are available in audiobook format, most read by James Marsters.

[Ddraig]

Jim Butcher - Dresden Files

it's a urban fantasy setting. The first book is a little slow to roll, but the sense of humor through out the story is pretty good.

Just remembered, the books are available in audiobook format, most read by James Marsters.

I got to be there for a panel by Jim, when he was talking about how he got started on the series at Dragon*con! He's an awesome panelist, and has hilarious stories.
One of the things he talked about specifically was how he'd been essentially 'winging it' when it came to writing for his Writing class, and his teacher kept harping on him about having the plot planned out and character profiles and the works, otherwise stories didn't hold consistency or have a sense of purpose. Eventually he did (as he said, more to prove the teacher wrong than expecting something useful out of it) and came up with the Dresden Files series.

[Dianae]

Jim Butcher - Dresden Files

it's a urban fantasy setting. The first book is a little slow to roll, but the sense of humor through out the story is pretty good.

Just remembered, the books are available in audiobook format, most read by James Marsters.

I got to be there for a panel by Jim, when he was talking about how he got started on the series at Dragon*con! He's an awesome panelist, and has hilarious stories.
One of the things he talked about specifically was how he'd been essentially 'winging it' when it came to writing for his Writing class, and his teacher kept harping on him about having the plot planned out and character profiles and the works, otherwise stories didn't hold consistency or have a sense of purpose. Eventually he did (as he said, more to prove the teacher wrong than expecting something useful out of it) and came up with the Dresden Files series.

I remembered that, but wasn't certain where I'd heard it from, so didn't mention it previously...

Though he had one completed Hexology, Codex Alera, which sprang out of a "worst story ideas ever" where someone challenged him to write a joke piece crossing Pokemon and the Roman Legion.

[IHeartMaeve]

So... Back on the comic's predictability, I'd say it depends on the events of the previous page.

Fair example of "Too predictable" is: Transition between Page 969 and 970.

Example of "unpredictable" would be (at the time): Page 960.

In short, it's only too predictable if you look at the right moment.

[GaySailors]

(Quote removed at user request - Turaiel)

Well, the moment they walked into that house, I was just counting the comic updates until it happened.

[Cyon]

(Quote removed by user request -Turaiel)

Well, the moment they walked into that house, I was just counting the comic updates until it happened.

But in this exact way? Nah, I was betting on the fact that their low alcohol tolerances would get them to go a bit crazy.

[GaySailors]

(Quote removed by user request -Turaiel)

Well, the moment they walked into that house, I was just counting the comic updates until it happened.

But in this exact way? Nah, I was betting on the fact that their low alcohol tolerances would get them to go a bit crazy.

Yeah, I expected a few more bottles lying around But this works too.

[HiseyLeSnake]

what modern story isn't predictable? and the stories that aren't predictable are often hated because the "twist" is far fetched and forced.
edit- also forgot to mention, unexpected endings can also be underwhelming..... take the game Fire watch if you have played it. The game is more of a play along story and it does a great job at building suspense, but the ending man..... completely ruined the story and it would have been far better of going the predictable route

[Ddraig]

also forgot to mention, unexpected endings can also be underwhelming..... take the game Fire watch if you have played it. The game is more of a play along story and it does a great job at building suspense, but the ending man..... completely ruined the story and it would have been far better of going the predictable route

I don't know, I rather liked Firewatch's ending. It wasn't completely unpredictable and it was much more believable than the alternative. There were little hints along the way, enough where I was starting to go "I wonder if it's that instead of this..."
Twists on the whole are good, so long as they aren't in most stories. That's why there's more directors out there than just M. Night Shyamalon. They do have to be plausible and not completely out of left field, and minor foreshadowing is good, but they definitely aren't bad for a story.

also, if you have to add something to a post, there is an edit button (as well as a delete post button, both in the top right of the post)

[avwolf]

For what it is worth, the overuse of amnesia pertains more to a different storytelling medium than novels or comics: video games. In a novel or comic, since there is not a player, the audience accepts that the character has a history to which they are ignorant. Sometimes the ignorance of the audience to the protagonist's background is the story (see The Kingkiller Chronicles, which are almost entirely a flashback, and most of the "present-day" events are inexplicable to the reader because they are still ignorant of much of the protagonist's history). I would agree that amnesia is a hackneyed mechanism for allowing exposition to the audience, but on reflection, that's including video game stories, and not really as much about the stories in comics or books, where it's really much more rare. (And even then, Tom was very young when he wrote those early comics. I'll bet all of us have written far more embarrassing and derivative things at that age, if we were inclined to do writing, so it is hardly worth holding Tom to the fire on that).

I, like amenon, have explained in the past that an important reason I kept reading Twokinds was that Tom would commonly nod to cliche, because we would expect it, wink at the audience, and then continue on. Take the Trace x Flora x Keith love/misunderstanding triangle. Tom acknowledged that it was a thing, but then instead of having some time-wasting jealousy plot, like a cartoon padding out its season, he had the characters behave more like real adults and decide to trust each other and continue on with their lives. "Trace-o-vision" remains a favorite panel (in a webcomic where Natani's repeated nudity is a running joke, so my reaction to Tom's writing in this manner is certainly strong).

But at this stage of the comic, sure, it feels predictable. A lot of the comic's history dictates where the characters go from here. We know their intended destination. We've become ingrained in our prejudices and expectations. We throw fits when the plot dawdles. Is there any doubt as to why Tom's moving the plot where we want it to go? As other commenters have said, we know where the plot is going. We've known that for many years. The interesting thing isn't that we can't predict the plot or elements thereof (Keith and Natani's relationship has been inevitable since the ground shook and they fell into each other's arms years and years ago). The interesting thing is watching it happen.

Of course, like many of you, I delight in exploring the rest of the world, seeing how the plot comes together and will come together. And I have lamented on occasion that I feel like all the major questions have already been answered. That is certainly nonsense, born more from arrogance than much else, but often I feel like the forum has debated the major remaining questions of the world and the plot, and have such a high degree of confidence in our answers that the story doesn't feel like it has anywhere else to go. But that bars clever twists: what if we are all wrong and Lyn'Knoll really is just a myth and a rumor? What if it is Trace's destiny to found this town of cooperation which is currently just a legend unmoored in "reality?" "But," we cry, "Nora told Trace she was bribed to keep it safe! Would she lie to him?!" And the answer to that is "most certainly, if she felt good reason to do it, or was simply thought it would be funny for some reason." If I'm right and Sirius, the Master Spy, is using Trace to find Lyn'Knoll in order to destroy it, then Nora's motives for sending Trace on a wild goose chase, simultaneously taking Sirius and a Templar army of unknown size out of the equation of the war, feel a lot more beneficent. All I'm really saying is -- no matter how good at it you are -- predicting the comic can still be considered a fools' errand.

Tom reads what we write and nods and winks appropriately. He'll fulfill the predictions he feels are right and twist the ones he wishes. Our expectations feed the eddies of the plot, and even if we feel the comic is walking on a well-delineated road, we should not fool ourselves into thinking that there aren't still sights to be seen on the route, or that it doesn't take an unexpected fork, just over the next hill.

-- I'm not going to bump the thread for something this pointless --
I know, I know, "avwolf, your 'Lyn'Knoll doesn't exist' suggestion doesn't work because Raine's been there. Quod erat demonstratum, you're an imbicile!" That just makes the twist more surprising, not less possible. Raine grew up locked in a tower like a version of Rupunzel with a cold, wet nose. Her mother could have used the myth of Lyn'knoll (and a reality of folks like Saria and Euchre's "master") to have kept Raine calm and less hysterical while Mary sought out ways to break the baleful transformation. People exist of the sort that supposedly populate Lyn'Knoll, Lyn'Knoll itself might still be just a dream.

[CrRAR]

Well said avwolf, I had meant to chime in earlier, and your post has finally inspired me. Honestly I'm perfectly happy with where Twokinds is, its progression, and watching as it develops.

Here's my perspective. A good storywriter through developing strong characters sort of paves a certain direction or at least reveals a rough approximation of the path they will take based on the setting they're in. Completely random characters or plots are not good practice. Good characters leave the viewer knowing what they'll do when they're not on screen. That's the definition of "character". Written correctly, you can get a sense of who they are, their motivations, hangups, aversions, leanings, dreams, etc, etc. It's why so many films end at a fade out with a character in a precarious position or with a tough decision to make. Because when that moment comes all the development up to that point should inform the viewer what decisions they will make - and continue to make - after a story fades to black. That's where the so-called "predictibility" lies. It is natural of coherent storytelling. Which by no means is a negative, just an inconvenient byproduct from a certain perspective if anything.

I think a large part of this thread's concern is exacerbated by the comic medium itself, but that's what makes Twokinds what it is and obviously one of its greatest attributes. It just comes down to that it's fun to speculate, imagine, and discuss in the meantime. After all, what else are we eager fans to do?

[Schrodinger]

Well, avwolf's back in full now. Good. I missed your perspective.

Tom does read these forums, this is known. And he has been known to alter his own plans for the next page; not drastically, but enough to show that he's paying attention.
Week after week we come together and speculate on the future of these characters. We've come to know them, their histories, their temperaments. We've come to understand how they'll react in a given situation. A good story keeps you enthralled in it, predictability be damned. It's the times when it's not predictable that seems to be the most contentious. I've seen it over and over again. Laura's death, the fire on the Na'Rella, the April Fools Incident, Natani's offering to go to second base. These were events not forseen by the community, the few times when Tom swerved and swerved hard.



It was debated for years that Keith would be Natani's closet key. Here we are and we celebrate the prediction we made. Tom has done just enough to feed us the information to arrive at a conclusion then takes us there by means we didn't expect. It's a balance like many things; too predictable and the story becomes boring,
too unpredictable and the narrative becomes scattered and shallow.

Part of this is the medium itself. We have the luxury of discussing events as they occur; something not afforded to an audience of television, movies, or even novels to some extent. We have the time to discuss amongst ourselves, gather information, and then draw conclusions about future events. We knew well before-hand that Alaric was going to die, that didn't make his death any less tragic or meaningful. Or that Keith and Natani finally becoming a couple was any less of a cause for celebration. We knew things things and we looked forward to them.

[NiWo21k]

what modern story isn't predictable? and the stories that aren't predictable are often hated because the "twist" is far fetched and forced.

I think the biggest problem we have today, is, that through the whole internet thing and access to so many stories, its nearly impossible to create something never seen before.
The more we read and watch the more we learn to see patterns, and the more a story goes into a cliche route the more it is predictable in some way.

Ok, dont get me wrong i am not saying everything can been seen miles away - it always depends on the author or the creative minds behind the projects. You can make a absolut cliche story and at the point where everyone is so into it, make a twist that your brain cant wrap around first. But there are also situations where you write yourself into a corner and the only way out is a predictable solution thats not very surprising.

With TwoKinds i think its somewhere between and depends a little bit on Toms mood and way of writing the story. I think some parts do come from nowhere (mostly the more comical things that happen), some parts are surprising (mostly backstory things or parts after specific events) and other parts are predictable but are necessary just to get the story rolling again (like Trace having to show who he is).

So: Is Two Kinds predictable - yes, but i would say mainly in the main story parts, but not the overall story itself (if that makes sense)...

and the stories that aren't predictable are often hated because the "twist" is far fetched and forced.

Thats something i cant understand: If you you write a story, then i think there has to be a point where your brain says "listen, this doesnt add up, leave it go" but it looks like the authors then think this is so clever when even they dont realise exactly what they mean with this. And then the normal reader/viewer should know what to do with that?

Just as an disclaimer: i dont want do say that authors dont know what they do - believe me, i started writing a story (and i may never finish it) so i know how hard this is, and i really respect people who can think of all of these stories, but sometimes, maybe just over sleep your twist and if it still seems strange in your eyes, then let it go

[Cpt.Obvious]

Thats something i cant understand: If you you write a story, then i think there has to be a point where your brain says "listen, this doesnt add up, leave it go" but it looks like the authors then think this is so clever when even they dont realise exactly what they mean with this. And then the normal reader/viewer should know what to do with that?

Just as an disclaimer: i dont want do say that authors dont know what they do - believe me, i started writing a story (and i may never finish it) so i know how hard this is, and i really respect people who can think of all of these stories, but sometimes, maybe just over sleep your twist and if it still seems strange in your eyes, then let it go

One thing to remember is that we tend to demand that things makes sense when reading a story. If the author has someone we've started to consider one of the main cast die in anything but heroic or tragic circumstances we get upset. A main character can't just have an accident, it has to be something more to it or the readers will get upset. This is not how the real world works though. People die from stupid accidents every day, and there is no author we can accuse of being sloppy.

In a book I read a man, who had acted as a main char for most of the book and had been introduced in an earlier book, was killed by a pack of rats. On one page he was discussing the future of the world he lived in and on the next page a pack of rats was picking his corpse. It was quick, brutal and didn't really forward the story in any way. No one gained from it and it didn't really impact the story in any significant way. And my first reaction was "WTF?" After thinking a bit about it I started to notice that there were actually a lot of these things in this and previous books in the series, and eventually I think I figured out why some of these things was happening. The author built the entire series on role playing sessions, and as a part of what happens in those are down to the dice [censored] HAPPENS!

Re-reading the death scene I can almost see the game play out:

GM: (rolls for random encounter; a pack of rats, -4 to perception) Oh by the way everyone, roll for perception.
Players roll their dice, no one near the rats succeeds by more than 3 points so the rats remain undetected.
GM: (sooo, Rats heh? Well it's a good thing it's noting serious) John, you get a bad feeling and looks around. Roll for perception again.
John: I sweep the area and (rolls the dice) a critical fail! I see nothing, there's nothing here to worry about.
GM: (It's a pack of rats, how hard can it be?) rolls for pack size. Open ended. Open ended. A six. (Three to four hundred? This IS ridiculous. OK no more -4 to perception)Lets see if anyone can see what had John spooked. Everyone roll for perception.
Dice are rolled and not a single success among them, not even unmodified...
GM: (This is starting to get ridiculous, I'll throw stealth for the rats and have them make some sound or something) rolls the dice and score a crit success (No this is just wrong. I can ignore this right? No, I'll give John another chance, perception plus 4, I mean he cant fail this many times in a row)John, perception! (crit fail) Reflex! (crit fail) For... What have you done to those dice? OK Everyone, except John, make a perception check, how many successes? None? Are you kidding me? OK I give upp! John, you are suddenly swamped by a horde of rats. No matter how you fight they are just too many. They tear at every inch of exposed flesh. Roll for reflex save, and don't fail again please! Oh and someone lend him some new dice just in case...
John: Uh... It's a fail...
GM: By how much?
John: All of it... Crit fail...
GM: You are dead! Congratulations you have now been killed by a pack of rats. And the rest of you didn't see a thing... Rats!

[NiWo21k]

One thing to remember is that we tend to demand that things makes sense when reading a story.

The problem is: What makes sense is from person to person different - but i know what you mean.

I was more thinking about"twists" like we know from M. Night Shyamalan (i am not saing he is the only one who does this). Twist that are there, but in most cases just dont add up at the end and makes it under circumstances even worse when you just think about it.