Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

The comic stuff here.
Message
Author
User avatar
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 6270
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: https://goo.gl/7ARWF4

Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#1 Post by TinyVoices » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:34 pm

Based on this discussion and a number of other ones in other threads, I figured this would be a good thread to make.


The comic has, over time, had minor changes made to it. "Minor" as in small details, but that certainly does not detail the impact those small artistic changes had.

Individuals who own the comic in physical, official form, might come to realize that their version is now canon. The webcomic archives recently received a facelift to become closer to physical comic canon. However, it also came to my attention that the comics have extra pages, panels, and details that the webcomic does not. This means that not only are the physical copies canon, they are- in a way- more canon than the webcomic. Tarnations.

I feel it'd be good to discuss the changes that have, therefore, been made. Additionally, how have these butterfly effects altered the comic as a whole.

User avatar
Worth 1000 Words
Posts: 7559
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am
Location: Neither here nor there

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#2 Post by Schrodinger » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:12 am

TinyVoices wrote:Based on this discussion and a number of other ones in other threads, I figured this would be a good thread to make.


The comic has, over time, had minor changes made to it. "Minor" as in small details, but that certainly does not detail the impact those small artistic changes had.

Individuals who own the comic in physical, official form, might come to realize that their version is now canon. The webcomic archives recently received a facelift to become closer to physical comic canon. However, it also came to my attention that the comics have extra pages, panels, and details that the webcomic does not. This means that not only are the physical copies canon, they are- in a way- more canon than the webcomic. Tarnations.

I feel it'd be good to discuss the changes that have, therefore, been made. Additionally, how have these butterfly effects altered the comic as a whole.
Good idea making the thread.

Now, the physical releases are no more or less canon than the version displayed here on the website. I'd classify the additional content as supplimentary material, it doesn't drastically alter the comic in any way. Though sometimes we do see references to some of the events. The additional insight is great, but it's nothing that necessarily needs to be read. Though I'm finding that harder to justify now that both Rose and Clovis have made appearances.

Things like Prank Pixie Panic or The Hunger/Feral Hunger can be safely skipped.
What was it the spider said to the fly...

User avatar
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:32 pm
Location: France

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#3 Post by Cyon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:16 am

I'm still going to hop at the opportunity for a re-read, as I've already noticed a spelling error (that I have signaled). It might not be much, but a good refresh of the story is nice from time to time

EDIT:
I've noticed on page 82 the last speech bubble of the second panel has been changed from red to white, making it seem that it's new Trace's actual thoughts rather than evil Trace's. For him to say that at this point seems harsh: he's already getting to know her and yet this presents an inconsistency in his feelings for her up to here in the story. He's defended her quite clearly against Keith, so definitely cares about her.
Who even looks at signatures anyways?

Multitasking is just a way to be less efficient at two different things simultaneously

Furcode: FCWp5ad A- C->+ D H+ M- P? R++ T++ W? Z- Sm# RL- a- cl++ d+ e- f h* i++ j? p- sm-

User avatar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:30 am
Location: Grand Prairie, Tx.

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#4 Post by SirJahar » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:27 am

Schrodinger wrote:
Now, the physical releases are no more or less canon than the version displayed here on the website. I'd classify the additional content as supplimentary material, it doesn't drastically alter the comic in any way. Though sometimes we do see references to some of the events.
And if they are refferenced in main canon, does that not male them canon?
Indeed, it leaves online readers at a disadvantage because they don't have these pages and are left scratching their heads when they are brought up latter on.

Rose came up in flashbavks before. Being in her current role makes sense if you have TDM, and while it isn't imposible without it, it would seem likea MAJOR stretch.
Finally putting my DA Gallery in my signature.
Image
Reminder that I keep drawing requests open all the time, shoot me a PM.

The Hidden User
Posts: 1283
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:06 am

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#5 Post by Hayate » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:31 am

I'm not 100% sure what all is and isn't in the comic anymore. Form what I did notice missing in the books I think the idea was to remove some of the stuff that didn't go anywhere but left loose ends that will never be explained. Like Flora teaching Trace to speak Keidran. That scene was missing completely if I remember right. The only other changes I remember off the top of my head just made things flow better.

User avatar
Worth 1000 Words
Posts: 7559
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am
Location: Neither here nor there

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#6 Post by Schrodinger » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:51 am

SirJahar wrote:
Schrodinger wrote:
Now, the physical releases are no more or less canon than the version displayed here on the website. I'd classify the additional content as supplimentary material, it doesn't drastically alter the comic in any way. Though sometimes we do see references to some of the events.
And if they are refferenced in main canon, does that not male them canon?
Indeed, it leaves online readers at a disadvantage because they don't have these pages and are left scratching their heads when they are brought up latter on.

Rose came up in flashbavks before. Being in her current role makes sense if you have TDM, and while it isn't imposible without it, it would seem likea MAJOR stretch.
The canonicity of the added material wasn't in dispute, it was the relevance of it. And I did say that I'm having difficulty defending it if TDM is going to be this integral to understand who these characters are and where they came from.
What was it the spider said to the fly...

User avatar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#7 Post by amenon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:22 pm

I'll still be a few days in going through the differences, and I'll probably post more when I'm done, but my first observation is that:
TinyVoices wrote:This means that not only are the physical copies canon, they are- in a way- more canon than the webcomic. Tarnations.
I think this is incorrect. A surprising (to me) number of pages are not present in the books, so the feeling I get is that the web canon is more complete.
Cyon wrote:EDIT:
I've noticed on page 82 the last speech bubble of the second panel has been changed from red to white, making it seem that it's new Trace's actual thoughts rather than evil Trace's. For him to say that at this point seems harsh: he's already getting to know her and yet this presents an inconsistency in his feelings for her up to here in the story. He's defended her quite clearly against Keith, so definitely cares about her.
On the flipside, this page was hammed way up :P

I think at least early on, Trace reacted to the presence of the towers. Though, he's perfectly capable of being an [censored] in the forest or on the open sea, too. Even when he isn't being all boot-stomping-on-the-face-of-all-that-is-good-forever, I don't think very much of his feelings for Flora. He's gotten a clue or two since then, but...
Schrodinger wrote:The canonicity of the added material wasn't in dispute, it was the relevance of it. And I did say that I'm having difficulty defending it if TDM is going to be this integral to understand who these characters are and where they came from.
Nothing about TDM is (so far) at all integral to understanding the story. 'The story' and 'community discussions surrounding the story' are two distinct things. All this hoopla of ours is fairly ephemeral, even here on the forums where it's something of a permanent record -- how often does anyone really read old threads? Once in a blue moon -- and all of us participating here are a tiny portion of the actual readership. On top of that, all of us participating during this time between Clovis appearing and Clovis being more explained -- which seems inevitable, but really, might not be -- is a tiny portion of that first tiny portion.

I do think it's important to keep TDM compartmentalized, just like it's important to keep Word of God compartmentalized. I don't think either of those things actually counts for the story proper, and explanations relying on either are woefully unsatisfactory to me. But so far, no issues. And probably, Clovis is going to come up through the Pettable Wolf, and we'll get a very bare-bones idea of who he is in relation to Natani, and... that's all the story really needs, to solidify him as a player.

User avatar
Citizen
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:42 am

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#8 Post by Combak » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:06 pm

Having the books, one thing I noticed was that the penguin Easter Egg had been removed. Or I missed it.

User avatar
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 6270
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: https://goo.gl/7ARWF4

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#9 Post by TinyVoices » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:22 pm

amenon wrote:I think this is incorrect. A surprising (to me) number of pages are not present in the books, so the feeling I get is that the web canon is more complete.
I do not own the physical copies, but I am more inclined to believe what friends who do own the copies have told me. Either Tom himself or else side by side proof would need to be shown to make me believe otherwise.
amenon wrote:Though, he's perfectly capable of being an [censored] in the forest or on the open sea, too.
This is off topic...
Spoiler!
Trace isn't really being an [censored] whatsoever in that first example. And he's allowed to have his doubts about Keidran. I still support his reasoning that the beasts are lesser than humans. Not to a degree whatsoever that justifies genocide (though evil Trace just hated the ones who took Saria away), but Keith's argument falls short when you include morals, technology, magic, and lifespan. Trace isn't being an [censored], he's just having reasonable doubts.
amenon wrote:Nothing about TDM is (so far) at all integral to understanding the story.
Except it is. Your complete disregard to this does not magically make it so. TDM provides backstory to Clovis and several others. (I only know of the pages from the preview and the ending, so I don't even know the full impact of the damn story. But from what I've seen so far, it's enough to make a difference.) TDM is the only side comic that is full canon, also.

Even if it might have the caveat of "what happens later in story that conflicts with TDM, overwrites TDM's canon." But woah, that would mean Tom could say in webcomic canon that Clovis was always female, never met Natani and Zen, and doesn't know who Trace or Nora is except through hearsay. That kinda changes stuff there, and would mean that none of TDM is canon, simply because little else of note would make sense whatsoever to have somehow happened, despite all the plot macguffins never existing.

Currently, unless the information from The Dragon Masquerade is repeated in full within comic, or else retconned completely, TDM holds information on several characters that is not present in the story.

User avatar
Worth 1000 Words
Posts: 7559
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am
Location: Neither here nor there

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#10 Post by Schrodinger » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:41 pm

The events of The Dragon Masquerade need not be related in full. We could have just seen Clovis's one and only appearance in the comic proper. In Rose's case someone just needs to ask why a wolf keidran, of all things, is the steward of Trace's estate.We'd learn that Rose was in Saria's service and it was Trace's lingering sentimentality that allowed her to stay.

We'd also hear of Rose's loyalty to Saria and possibly how the two met. So as I said, reading TDM is supplementary material.
What was it the spider said to the fly...

User avatar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#11 Post by amenon » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:54 pm

I return from the depths, bringing scripts. Here, you can find the search-based transcript, before and after. (The one below is the old one; the one above is the new one.) [And search itself still isn't updated. Still need to do a bit of janitorial. Probably tomorrow.]

Since I imagine many people don't have diffing tools on hand, here's a 4 megabyte (yes, really...) HTML rendition of a visual diff. You're going to need 1500 horizontal pixels, or to improvise. If somebody wants to make a more usable presentation, please do :P (And I'm a little unsure how bl.ocks operates, hopefully that'll stay accessible.) [Note: This has an error on page 404. A sentence that should have been removed wasn't.]

Some of the more interesting changes I noted:
  • Karen's nose was downgraded. (She's just got keidran hearing.)
  • Trace's murderosity (when Sythe is talking Flora into killing him) was downgraded to 'hundreds' (but Ephemural still taunts him with hundreds of thousands, later.)
  • There is no new Grand Templar early on.
  • Red is now an ex-Templar rather than a Templar. Except at one point where he's still a Templar. But at least Maren isn't, anymore.
  • Keith's explanation of heat went from 'five times a year' to 'a few times a year.'
  • A Tower was explained as a 'Templar Mana Battery', rather than a Templar barracks.
  • The rules of the game have changed; it seems Ephemural could have killed Trace.
  • Natani is more accustomed to being injured
  • A bit of a shift in slavery law; I'm no longer sure offhand if non-traders are required to use obedience spells.
  • The timeline has shifted towards self-consistency. (And it follows that the story is probably somewhere in its third month.)
  • Keith speaks in basitin after being nutted by Natani, which I thought was a cute touch. (And relatedly, {} are now the canonical tags for basitin speech. I always preferred [] (;_;))
  • The comic now has +1 BWOM!
  • It was clarified what Keith was tempted to do. (I always figured it was to get with Natani; avwolf, I think, insisted it must have been a kiss; and in true Tom fashion, the answer is neither and makes more sense than either.)
  • Plausible keidran life expectancy has been nudged up. It's no longer necessarily the case that there's anything unnatural going on with Euchre and Rose. (Euchre does seem a bit spry for what must be a keidran equivalent of a centenarian, but we have no comparison. Keidran could stay more fit than humans into their old age.) On the other hand, Euchre is pretty clearly odd and magical, so.
  • The panel 3/4 exchange here is now a thing of pure beauty :grin:
  • 'Militia' is no longer a career option for young!Natani.
  • Slavery in general and Eric in particular may have been de-emphasized at a few places, but all the pieces to his rapey puzzle are, alas, still in play.
  • Randal no longer refers to his students as children, possibly to make Trace a slightly less awful human being.
  • Nora's description of young Trace now omits the phrase "You were shy and had quite a temper, but you weren't a bad kid." Curious.
  • Nora now sets the time of Saria's death as "six seasons ago", and I can't figure out why. (Yes, it's still 4+2 years ago.) Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
  • Alaric's Keith Statue Project was now started six months ago, rather than a year ago. This coincides with Laura's arrival on the island, and is a bloody nice touch.
  • Alaric's tail wag was removed. Tom is a monster (;_;)
  • Keith and Laura talking mixed human/keidran around Natani. Really neat.
  • The details of Trace's and Flora's fight around Eric painting her again changed a bit, and it reads a lot better now.
  • Albion didn't kill the basitin guard he bonked at the inn
As for a random art change, Tom is now wanted for crimes against perspective :P

Oh, and we no longer have a canon height/weight for Euchre and Keith from their standoff.
TinyVoices wrote:
amenon wrote:I think this is incorrect. A surprising (to me) number of pages are not present in the books, so the feeling I get is that the web canon is more complete.
I do not own the physical copies, but I am more inclined to believe what friends who do own the copies have told me. Either Tom himself or else side by side proof would need to be shown to make me believe otherwise.
Well, for the benefits of others reading, the web canon is indeed more complete. Neither is a strict subset of the other, but the web version has more pages (after discounting fillers.)

Here's most of what's not in book 1:
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/25/
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/69/
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/89/
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/93/
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/94/
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/102/
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/103/

Book 1 is about a wash page count wise; book 2 has more pages removed than added. Book 3 might actually have all the same pages, just in a different order. I'm pretty sure there were no additions, and I don't remember any removals. I guess this is something I'll end up looking at too...

User avatar
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 6270
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: https://goo.gl/7ARWF4

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#12 Post by TinyVoices » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Me while reading this wrote:That's not included? That's not included? That wasn't in there? Whaatt. What?
A lot of those pages kind of explain why someone knows someone else, or why they are who they are. How does Tom explain those bits of information otherwise?
amenon wrote:Book 3 might actually have all the same pages, just in a different order.
Isn't book 3 only the Basitin Isle arc up until the tower explosion? That one is fairly linear story wise. I woulda thought the volume that included chapter 6 be the one that saw a lot of page shuffling. :?

User avatar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#13 Post by amenon » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:24 pm

Combak wrote:Having the books, one thing I noticed was that the penguin Easter Egg had been removed. Or I missed it.
One of them was! The other one is still in the books.
TinyVoices wrote:A lot of those pages kind of explain why someone knows someone else, or why they are who they are. How does Tom explain those bits of information otherwise?
A lot of it is redundant with somewhere else, but really, this is why I say the web canon is more complete.
TinyVoices wrote:Isn't book 3 only the Basitin Isle arc up until the tower explosion? That one is fairly linear story wise. I woulda thought the volume that included chapter 6 be the one that saw a lot of page shuffling. :?
I can't believe I actually forgot that from my list xD
  • Chapter 6 is now in chronological order, and has a new cover (not even in the books!)
(But, note that it was always almost entirely chronological. It's actually a fairly small change, mostly just removing the framing it used to have.)

User avatar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:30 am
Location: Grand Prairie, Tx.

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#14 Post by SirJahar » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:02 pm

So a decent sized list, the implications not fully explored, and several pages that make events after them make SUBSTANTIALY more sense are not in the online archives.
And several slashed dreams from lore being removed in the name of "cutting dead-end plot threads".
And a need for a full re-read to really partake in the discussion on the story as many of us are now terribly ill-informed.

Also, there are maybe 3 people willing to engage you in your long-form essay debate. Quite dissmissing anyone who disagrees with you in less, we have points too.
Finally putting my DA Gallery in my signature.
Image
Reminder that I keep drawing requests open all the time, shoot me a PM.

User avatar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Retcons, and Other Changes to the Comic

#15 Post by amenon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:46 pm

SirJahar wrote:and several pages that make events after them make SUBSTANTIALY more sense are not in the online archives.
And several slashed dreams from lore being removed in the name of "cutting dead-end plot threads".
Um, no? The removals are in the books.
SirJahar wrote:And a need for a full re-read to really partake in the discussion on the story as many of us are now terribly ill-informed.
The implications of the changes almost exclusively only matter in the world of the people who, as you put it, do long-form essays. Do you actually want to 'really partake', as you say? You've always seemed dismissive of it.
SirJahar wrote:Also, there are maybe 3 people willing to engage you in your long-form essay debate. Quite dissmissing anyone who disagrees with you in less, we have points too.
So make them? I'm pretty busy nowadays, but I'll probably find time to respond if you say something interesting. I can even try to keep the word count down.

Post Reply