Sketch of the Day

The comic stuff here.

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Technic[Bot]
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3481 Post by Technic[Bot] »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:18 pm Today we have more information than you ever needed to know about Natani, in the:

Natani Ref Sheet


Personally, I can't get enough of this sort of background info/lore, I love this stuff.

The bit about him having a very good singing voice that he doesn't use due to it coming out feminine is something I found particularly interesting. A neat thing in real life neuroscience is that singing seems to be processed quite differently in the brain than normal speech. There are people with aphasia (difficulty with language processing, often due to brain damage from e.g. a stroke) who can't coherently string two words together when trying to talk normally, who can nevertheless sing completely fluently. Natani had to train himself to speak like a male - Tom once mentioned that the keidran language indicates gender by adding 'male' or 'female' inflections to speech (as there's no inherent tonal difference between male or female voices like with humans), and that Natani's trained himself to speak this way for so long that he'd actually find it hard to speak with female inflections now. (This was in 2007, but I see no reason to assume it's changed.) However, I could totally see this not having extended to singing (or howling, which is kinda similar I guess) if he hadn't specifically trained for it, given how differently singing appears to be handled by the brain. I don't know if Tom did that on purpose or if how it fits with RL neuroscience is just a coincidence, but it's still neat.

The similar note about body language is also kinda neat. This comic was a joke, but I wonder if Raine actually *would* have 'weird' body language due to having grown up in isolation and never in her keidran form.

Also, I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, but *man* wolves are huge. That's gotta be a bit intimidating to be around, at least for your 'average' human who's already conditioned to think of wolves as dangerous.
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The part about Nat's voice is interesting. After all pitch is based around the physical characteristics of the throat windpipe mouth etcetera but since all those are flexible structures changing the voice is completely posible. Althoguht considering wolves, are freaking huge I would imagine even the most feminine Keidran voice would sound deep and gutural for us. Besides I am not sure a human could hear the difference. I deal with a lot of dogs, strays mostly, and honestly I can't tell one howl/bark from another.
Then there is the body language part. I know that for most social animals there are some behaviour that are clearly used to communicate but for most us humans those cues are very hard to tell unless you deal with a lot of animals, like a vet. On top of that a lot of animals use odors and chemical signals for comunication. So it would be expected for a race of humanoid canids to develop very subtle but clear, for them at least, body language to convey a lot of stuff, from everything from social status to gender.
Also even real wolves are pretty damn big . A somewhat large wolf would be my same volume and mass and that alone is enough to make them scary. Now imagine a 2 meters tall 100 kilogram walking wolf! And of top of that Natani is a profesional, albeit not that good, assasin.
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aitaituo
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3482 Post by aitaituo »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:45 amThe part about Nat's voice is interesting. After all pitch is based around the physical characteristics of the throat windpipe mouth etcetera but since all those are flexible structures changing the voice is completely posible. Althoguht considering wolves, are freaking huge I would imagine even the most feminine Keidran voice would sound deep and gutural for us. Besides I am not sure a human could hear the difference. I deal with a lot of dogs, strays mostly, and honestly I can't tell one howl/bark from another.
Humans cheat on our vocal tone. Starting in puberty, girls make their voices unnaturally high and boys make their voices unnaturally low until it becomes second nature. I'm guessing wolf keidran do something similar, since they have sex distinct vocal tone and Natani doesn't use magic to disguise hers.

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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3483 Post by Hulk10 »

Yeah... I'm not so sure about the unnaturally high or unnaturally low voice thing for humans.
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3484 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:45 amThe part about Nat's voice is interesting. After all pitch is based around the physical characteristics of the throat windpipe mouth etcetera but since all those are flexible structures changing the voice is completely posible. Althoguht considering wolves, are freaking huge I would imagine even the most feminine Keidran voice would sound deep and gutural for us.
Body size definitely has a role, but it's apparently mostly the morphology of the larynx and vocal chords that controls pitch - e.g. even quite tall human women usually have higher voices than men. Males simply have a larger larynx relative to their overall body size, with longer vocal chords that vibrate at lower frequencies. But that's a human specific thing - there's no inherent reason why the larynx *has* to have sex-specific differences, it just does. There's no reason at all why that particular quirk has to carry over to other species, so keidran not having any inherent tonal differences between male and female voices seems reasonable to me.
aitaituo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:39 amHumans cheat on our vocal tone. Starting in puberty, girls make their voices unnaturally high and boys make their voices unnaturally low until it becomes second nature. I'm guessing wolf keidran do something similar, since they have sex distinct vocal tone and Natani doesn't use magic to disguise hers.
I assume you mean *in addition to* the basic biological differences, because those are definitely the major driver. (E.g. no way can I hit some of the notes my sister can no matter *what* I do with my voice, it's not all cultural conditioning by a long shot.) But given that, that's similar to what Tom described in the link - that the language dictates that males and females should use different inflections when speaking, even though there's no inherent differences in their voices, and that Natani's trained himself to use the male mode of speaking rather than the female mode. Note, however, that it's described as 'inflections' and 'additives' - e.g. different ways of building words, not different tones, so there's still no indication that wolves have sex distinct tones.

e: Now I want to see a sketch suggestion where Natani is persuaded to sing for Keith and he is blown away by how good of a singing voice Nat has. :grin:
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3485 Post by aitaituo »

It is in addition to biological differences, but a low woman's natural speaking voice and a high male's natural speaking voice are within the same range. The biological difference, different floors and ceilings of tone, wouldn't be very noticeable outside of singing without the unnatural addition. Note that Natani can't hide her female tonality well when she sings. Linguists have tested this. The extent of the sex difference is more apparent in some cultures/languages. Japanese women are well known for a child-like (high) tonal affectation. Young American women have become notable in the last decade or so for affecting the (low) vocal fry.

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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3486 Post by TheMouse »

Now I want to see a sketch suggestion where Natani is persuaded to sing for Keith and he is blown away by how good of a singing voice Nat has. :grin:
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3487 Post by MuonNeutrino »

aitaituo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:53 pmNote that Natani can't hide her female tonality well when she sings.
Tom specifically said that there is no such thing as a female tonality for keidran - check out the post I linked. There's no reason why the things you mentioned for humans also have to be that way for keidran. He said that the language uses inflections and additives to denote the gender of the speaker, but that means word construction differences, not tonal ones. (Tone instead denotes the dialect, with higher pitched sounds being used in high keidran and lower pitched sounds in low keidran.)
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3488 Post by JohnTheWysard »

Humans do have gender differences in range, but they do overlap and are subject to modification with training. Adam Ward, the alto/countertenor member of Chanticleer, has a rather low pitched resonant speaking voice but an incredible range and power in the treble clef; and I met a woman who sings baritone in a Boise medieval music group who has an equally impressive range in the bass clef (down to A below the staff, which I have to struggle for... and I'm a BASS!)

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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3489 Post by Ddraig »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:56 pm
aitaituo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:53 pmNote that Natani can't hide her female tonality well when she sings.
Tom specifically said that there is no such thing as a female tonality for keidran - check out the post I linked. There's no reason why the things you mentioned for humans also have to be that way for keidran. He said that the language uses inflections and additives to denote the gender of the speaker, but that means word construction differences, not tonal ones. (Tone instead denotes the dialect, with higher pitched sounds being used in high keidran and lower pitched sounds in low keidran.)
My reading of that is that Tom retconn'd that (for others' reference: because as he says in Natani's ref sheet ("fun fact" lower right) that Nat's singing voice "comes out as unmistakably feminine"). To me, he's describing her voice, not her language or pronunciation. It's sufficiently ambiguous that I can't say you're wrong, but IMO it does strongly suggest that it was retconn'd.
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3490 Post by Tyger42 »

aitaituo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:39 am Humans cheat on our vocal tone. Starting in puberty, girls make their voices unnaturally high and boys make their voices unnaturally low until it becomes second nature.
I don't know where you got this idea, but if it even factors in, its minimal at best. Physiological differences play a MUCH bigger role in the differences in pitch between men's and women's voices.

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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3491 Post by tony1695 »

Today, a young Keith encounters something very magical, Laura of the Lamp!
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3492 Post by aitaituo »

Tyger42 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:52 pm
aitaituo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:39 am Humans cheat on our vocal tone. Starting in puberty, girls make their voices unnaturally high and boys make their voices unnaturally low until it becomes second nature.
I don't know where you got this idea, but if it even factors in, its minimal at best. Physiological differences play a MUCH bigger role in the differences in pitch between men's and women's voices.
I got it from the head of the linguistics department where I went to college.

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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3493 Post by tony1695 »

Today, we get a glimpse into Maren's Thoughts on Sythe, and how she's trying desperately to lie to herself. Give in to the truth, Maren, you know you want him.
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3494 Post by Dadrobit »

tony1695 wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:44 pm Today, we get a glimpse into Maren's Thoughts on Sythe, and how she's trying desperately to lie to herself. Give in to the truth, Maren, you know you want him.
I for one am deeply grateful that Tom took the advice of the chat on changing it from the original version. "Ya know, Tom. If this was her fantasy/imagination, there probably wouldn't be a loincloth there~~~" :mrgrin:
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Re: Sketch of the Day

#3495 Post by tony1695 »

Dadrobit wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:41 pm
tony1695 wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:44 pm Today, we get a glimpse into Maren's Thoughts on Sythe, and how she's trying desperately to lie to herself. Give in to the truth, Maren, you know you want him.
I for one am deeply grateful that Tom took the advice of the chat on changing it from the original version. "Ya know, Tom. If this was her fantasy/imagination, there probably wouldn't be a loincloth there~~~" :mrgrin:
I'm still personally a little disappointed Sythe isn't doing the Flanders "Nothing at all!" pose.
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