Comic for Wednesday, December 14th, 2016

[amenon]

Really, the reason I'm saying 'called it' is because, as far as I remember anyway, I was pretty much the only one going down those particular lines in speculating about what was happening with him and why. I missed some of the details, but I (again, IIRC) was the only one advocating a 'must make a difficult choice between multiple bad/ambiguous options' stance, and I was the only one who seems to have correctly anticipated his mental state and the general reasoning he was using to decide on a course of action. I didn't get all of the details, of course (and if I *did*, I would be going to buy a lotto ticket right now!), but I was a lot closer on the general idea than everyone else.

Okay, fair enough. I went looking for really early Zen predictions, and there really isn't a whole lot, beyond people generally agreeing that he must've freaked out. I was up an entirely wrong tree myself, as I'm wont to be, going all in on Natani having been stuck with Zen. And after that, I got embroiled in the Natani wars for reals.

Mostly, looking at those old discussions, I just got depressed anew at what a dim worldline this turned out to be. Zen's effort with the link didn't have to be tragically flawed. He could have been less wrong. Natani could have been stronger. They didn't have to have spent half their lives being idiots. But, the past has been sacrificed. Hopefully to build a better future, but still.

avwolf! Get in here and fight me about something! Or do we even have anything left to disagree about? Too late for any of the old arguments, too early for the ones around the corner?

I guess I'll throw in some lukewarm predictions: Is the idea of using Zen as a telephone about to come up again? Surely, someone there would like to hear from Trace. What's group B's understanding of Zen's current situation, really?

[MuonNeutrino]

<predictions?>

I think that Zen is going to eventually find some sympathy from some of group B, and my personal 'out on a limb' speculation is that it's actually going to come, partially, from Sythe instead of just Raine.

After all, why is Sythe in his current situation to start with? Because he couldn't help but empathize with these humans he knew personally, even though they were 'supposed' to be his enemies. And while it took him a little while to warm up to (most of!) them, he doesn't really blame them for it for long and by now is willing to risk his life for them. On another topic, he also still cares about Flora's wellbeing, even though neither of them actually has any romantic interest in each other and even after she threw him over for the literally-hitler *grand templar* (!), of all people. And even when he's made to try to bring her back by force, he still doesn't wish her harm and is highly distressed (both at the time and later) by the decision to send assassins after her.

The way his character is depicted, he comes across to me as being the sort of person who simply cares what happens to people - even the ones he's not 'supposed' to. Let someone get inside his guard even a bit and he just can't help caring about what happens to them. Mind you, he can be hard when needed - for example, if Raine hadn't overheard him and Red talking and intervened, if Zen hadn't thought up his fasttalking scheme to convince them they still needed him around, I can completely believe that he and Red would have gone through on their plan to kill Zen. But now? If 'Zen the assassin' somehow showed himself to still be a threat, if he broke free and tried to attack them or something like that, then sure. But 'Zen the worried depressed brother'? I don't think so.

I don't think Sythe is anywhere near the point of trusting or sympathizing with Zen yet. But I do think he's the character in group B, after Raine, most likely to become so at some point. Even now, he's the one who brings up Zen's odd silence first. And since he and Raine are the only two in the party who can understand Zen, if Zen ever decides to start interacting with his surroundings more I could see the same process repeating itself as Sythe gets to know him. I'm curious to see how it works out.

[imalbert]

After all, why is Sythe in his current situation to start with?

Women

[Elemental Templar]

After all, why is Sythe in his current situation to start with?

Women

To be more accurate...
(Page 534)

[Cpt.Obvious]

After all, why is Sythe in his current situation to start with?

Women

More specifically,Karen!

(and I was ninjaed by the Elemental Templar...)

[Dadrobit]

Hmmm, I feel that this begs a few questions.

How much does Team B know about Zen's affliction over the last few days/week(s?).

And if they don't know, then why not? I would imagine that knowing they have a conduit for communication with Trace would lead them to use that ability more no?

Also, if they did try to use him again and Zen just lied about, "It uses up too much energy to do again so soon," or some other such excuse, then will Sythe and or Raine maybe really start to get a feel that things aren't so alright with their captive and his previous capabilities with this outburst?

[Forever-Disturbed]

And if they don't know, then why not? I would imagine that knowing they have a conduit for communication with Trace would lead them to use that ability more no?

I honestly think they don't know much if anything at all about his link with his brother. He's apparently just been really quiet the entire time, according to Red, so they probably just assume he's still just a Baddy McBadman™ who's plotting how he's going to murder them all the second they turn their backs, or something.

Even if they did know something, I don't think they'd make the connection that trace is with Zen's brother unless he brought it up specifically, so it makes perfect sence that they haven't tried to use him as a man-sized telephone yet.

Unless I missed a detail, in which case please enlighten me because I probably just forgot.

[Dadrobit]

And if they don't know, then why not? I would imagine that knowing they have a conduit for communication with Trace would lead them to use that ability more no?

I honestly think they don't know much if anything at all about his link with his brother. He's apparently just been really quiet the entire time, according to Red, so they probably just assume he's still just a Baddy McBadman™ who's plotting how he's going to murder them all the second they turn their backs, or something.

Even if they did know something, I don't think they'd make the connection that trace is with Zen's brother unless he brought it up specifically, so it makes perfect sence that they haven't tried to use him as a man-sized telephone yet.

Unless I missed a detail, in which case please enlighten me because I probably just forgot.

Yep, Zen spoke about his telepathic link early on in the capture. He also spoke of Natani being with Trace and Flora fairly specifically.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=831

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=838

Though Sythe calls them, "claims" I question why they wouldn't have at some point investigated further and attempted some kind of contact with Trace, thus revealing Zen's incapacitation.

[Forever-Disturbed]

Yep, Zen spoke about his telepathic link early on in the capture. He also spoke of Natani being with Trace and Flora fairly specifically.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=831

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=838

Though Sythe calls them, "claims" I question why they wouldn't have at some point investigated further and attempted some kind of contact with Trace, thus revealing Zen's incapacitation.

Well RIP, guess I'm just an idiot then.

Still, there's no reason for them to believe him, and the point of them still thinking he's an Evil MurderDude™ still stands? Kinda?

I mean they probably think he just made that [censored] up as an excuse to not kill him. Funny how they thought the truth was completely insane yet completely believe the (admittedly more believable) white lie he gave them.

Either way thanks for correcting me, I guess this just means it's time for me to have me a re-read.

[Dadrobit]

Well RIP, guess I'm just an idiot then.

Still, there's no reason for them to believe him, and the point of them still thinking he's an Evil MurderDude™ still stands? Kinda?

I mean they probably think he just made that [censored] up as an excuse to not kill him. Funny how they thought the truth was completely insane yet completely believe the (admittedly more believable) white lie he gave them.

Either way thanks for correcting me, I guess this just means it's time for me to have me a re-read.

Bah, happens to everyone. I can't count the number of times I've been wrong about things on this board.

As for the "no reason to believe him because he's murder-y" bit, that's what has me confused. Why haven't they questioned him further after the shackle went on?

Overall, it feels as if time just simply stopped with how little character and plot building has been done in the interim for Group B. It just starts right in present time with not even a hint of a flashback to something interesting. Did they ~all~ just walk in completely uneventful, near-total silence until now?

[amenon]

Overall, it feels as if time just simply stopped with how little character and plot building has been done in the interim for Group B. It just starts right in present time with not even a hint of a flashback to something interesting. Did they ~all~ just walk in completely uneventful, near-total silence until now?

It's a contract thing. They only get paid when they're on-panel

Seriously though, I complained about the first two pages of the transition, but I think it's been fine since. I'd say the probable explanation is that they know they cut him off.

[Dadrobit]

It's a contract thing. They only get paid when they're on-panel

I swear, the lack of self-motivation in this business...

I'd say the probable explanation is that they know they cut him off.

As plausible and probable as that is, I have to ask a final question...

Where's the drama in that?

Drama is pretty much the sole pull of this comic, and while it has introduced something to chew on in the more recent updates, there's still just such a huge opportunity lost here with the execution of reintroducing Group B as it was. Just comparing it to the beginning of the last chapter and how it dealt with its own time-skip, there's plot development and drama galore even in the first three pages.

Seriously though, I complained about the first two pages of the transition, but I think it's been fine since.

So I suppose I'll more or less just echo your statement then.

[amenon]

Drama is pretty much the sole pull of this comic, and while it has introduced something to chew on in the more recent updates, there's still just such a huge opportunity lost here with the execution of reintroducing Group B as it was. Just comparing it to the beginning of the last chapter and how it dealt with its own time-skip, there's plot development and drama galore even in the first three pages.

I'd say a calm open suits the end of the previous chapter much better. On the same token, the open of chapter 18 had to have a bit of something to it. (And I remember people complaining about how that wasn't dramatic enough. I mostly even agree. Showing the immediate aftermath of Natani going down would have been much stronger.)

But in both cases, I think we're ultimately up against limitations that are extrinsic to the story. Namely, that Tom probably wants to finish this thing before he dies of old age. I really like the level of detail he tells the story at, but it's absolutely not always sustainable, not in this medium. A lot has fallen out, a lot will continue to fall out, and if groups A and B actually meet, things may straight up break with how many new character dynamics there would be. Addressing all of them in any kind of meaningful way would take forever, but leaving too many out might end up feeling hollow.

Because, of course, drama isn't the pull of this comic. It's the characters

[Hdeath1]

To be honest I don't think it lacks drama, personally I feel there is enough for the setting. As for the time lapse, sometimes it's necessary for things like this when you have more than one party you're focusing on. There is something missing but atm I can't figure out what it is so I'll just leave it at that.

[Dadrobit]

I'd say a calm open suits the end of the previous chapter much better. On the same token, the open of chapter 18 had to have a bit of something to it. (And I remember people complaining about how that wasn't dramatic enough. I mostly even agree. Showing the immediate aftermath of Natani going down would have been much stronger.)

But in both cases, I think we're ultimately up against limitations that are extrinsic to the story. Namely, that Tom probably wants to finish this thing before he dies of old age. I really like the level of detail he tells the story at, but it's absolutely not always sustainable, not in this medium. A lot has fallen out, a lot will continue to fall out, and if groups A and B actually meet, things may straight up break with how many new character dynamics there would be. Addressing all of them in any kind of meaningful way would take forever, but leaving too many out might end up feeling hollow.

Agreed, missing a few miscellaneous bits and pieces here and there is fine, and thusly, this particular moment definitely should not have been glossed over so easily.

Because, of course, drama isn't the pull of this comic. It's the characters

Disagree, kind of.

The characters might be interesting, sure, but they are merely reflections of the drama that created and molded them. TwoKinds is not generally a comic for those interested in characters engaging in quiet introspection and gentle ruminations without some very dramatic motivations and forces.