Personal Inter-species Relations

[Crowlin]

As we can see, attraction between humans and keidran is seeming to become more expected and prevalent in public. Do you believe this has always been the case, is still viewed as something that should generally be kept behind closed doors, or do you believe it has become more socially acceptable perhaps with the growing relations between the humans and tigers/felines?

Could this be hinting to the idea that Trace and Flora's situation, though still quite unique given the pregnancy, is something that is becoming much more acceptable and something that might not have to stay hidden sooner rather than later?

[prototype99]

i think it is accepted to a degree, remember is bred for... a certain purpose. also kei being friends with obviously wasn't shunned upon. i think it might be mixed opinions.

[The Rookie]

It's probably something accepted by some and shunned by others, similar the homosexuality in the real world. We do know of two locations where inter species marriage/relations aren't uncommon; Orchard Valley and a second human village in wolf territory Tom wrote about in some background lore.

It's probably more accepted by those who live in mixed communities, like in towns on the boarders between races. Places where both races would interact quite regularly. You're bond to find a mixed couple eventually.

[Neutral Smith]

i think it is accepted to a degree, remember is bred for... a certain purpose. also kei being friends with obviously wasn't shunned upon. i think it might be mixed opinions.

It used to be 'all fun and no babies', just like a good porn with interspecies (or gay). But now a certain demi-god has changed some rules...

[Schrodinger]

i think it is accepted to a degree, remember is bred for... a certain purpose. also kei being friends with obviously wasn't shunned upon. i think it might be mixed opinions.

It used to be 'all fun and no babies', just like a good porn with interspecies (or gay). But now a certain demi-god has changed some rules...

Kathrin is infertile due to the selective breeding that produced her, any activity she does partake in will be fruitless unless there's a miracle child. As for places like Lyn'Knoll, there will be a surprising population boom.

[JMadoc]

Nevermind a population boom, what about illegitimate children outside of Lyn'Knoll?

[prototype99]

i think it is accepted to a degree, remember is bred for... a certain purpose. also kei being friends with obviously wasn't shunned upon. i think it might be mixed opinions.

It used to be 'all fun and no babies', just like a good porn with interspecies (or gay). But now a certain demi-god has changed some rules...

Kathrin is infertile due to the selective breeding that produced her, any activity she does partake in will be fruitless unless there's a miracle child. As for places like Lyn'Knoll, there will be a surprising population boom.

yes but..., let's just say that the other person might not necessarily be doing it for children... what i was trying to get at was that humans do find it acceptable to do intimate things with other species, as they breed some slaves for that purpose...

[MuonNeutrino]

People are people everywhere, sex drives and all, and that includes keidran. We know that humans and keidran are... physically compatible, and they obviously have similar enough (though not necessarily identical!) standards of beauty to find each other attractive in at least some cases. So given all that, I would definitely expect that sexual relations between humans and keidran have been a thing for a long time. Certainly not everyone will approve of it, but when has that ever stopped people before? And we do know that at least in human society there's some who outright breed sex slaves, so any disapproval there can't be *too* overwhelming. It might be more noticeable in places where interaction between the races is more common, but I doubt it's anything new.

What I expect is closer to taboo is *romantic* relationships. Given how Tom's specifically emphasized it as unusual in the two cases we know of, that seems to imply that actual love/marriage across species lines (as opposed to just physical relations) is *not* widely accepted. To put it crudely, I would expect people to be less perturbed to realize that Trace and Flora are having sex than if they realize that they're in love. Not everyone would object, for sure (Eric, for example, though he's hardly typical), but probably more than would object to simple physical intimacy.

[Darkfur]

and they obviously have similar enough (though not necessarily identical!) standards of beauty to find each other attractive in at least some cases.

Actually, the attraction that men have for skinnier girls is usually only prevalent in wealthier, first world countries. In historical times or in poorer countries, men typically find larger set women to be more attractive, because that is a sign that the woman leads a life free of physical labor, and/or is actually wealthy enough to afford enough food to get fat. Therefore, this either contradicts what you and the comic stated, due to the fact that this would likely be the norm in the human lands as well, or this points out the fact that they are abnormally wealthy for the setting.

[Warrl]

In the American South, pre-Civil War, a white having sex with a black slave was a nasty social taboo *on top of* the taboo against having sex with someone you weren't married to... of course the black slave still didn't have an effective right to refuse, and it happened quite a lot (mostly but not exclusively white men and slave women). No doubt some slaves commanded higher prices for the purpose.

I imagine that the specific taboo would be weaker in a mixed-species society where cross-species sex can't produce children, and is particularly rampant among human teenagers and equivalent-age keidran.

Still, I expect that humans suffer strong social disapproval from other humans if they don't keep their human-keidran sexual activities discreet - and more so if there seems to be any sort of emotional commitment.

Also, while it isn't clear when human females are fertile (and it generally tends to be during the time when they are horniest), it's well-known when keidran females are fertile (and it's *after* that period of maximum horniness). It's explicit that keidran use sex to get acquainted. Therefore it makes sense that when a young keidran female is desperate to get laid, she should seek out a variety of compatible young men, and then pick which one is the best choice during a less hormone-driven period. Whereas a human following that approach would find herself pregnant and unsure who the father is.

Different species, different reproductive biology, different culture, different rules.

In another comic, three giraffes got married. In just one ceremony a male exchanged vows with two females who also exchanged vows with each other. The family of one of the brides was introduced as father, mother, mother, mother, and Mommy . Giraffes are herd animals. This makes perfect sense for herd animals, except that there are far too few females for many species and some species would also allow additional males.

[Bellhead]

TL;DR Humans and Keidrans can now make babies (gods are allowing them to be biologically compatible) and once they figure this out the taboo against interspecies relations will slowly be forgotten.

So you believe the taboo to be solely based on the fact that humans and Keidran cannot interbreed, and thereby having nothing to do with the fact that one enslaved the other and believe them to be nothing more than animals? I don't quite understand how simply allowing interbreeding to take place would change something in place for so long that is so deeply rooted in society.

"I HATE YOUR SPECIES, YOU SUB-HUMAN ANIMAL!" "But we can have a kid together now." "Oh, my mistake, let's all be friends."

Granted, it would take time, but in order to start the domino effect, one needs something strong enough to hit the first domino, and I do not think something such as that would be enough on its own. This is why Flora's child could be so important. If he/she decides to simply hide, it would make no difference, but if he/she decides to use their gift of race, it could change everything. Started by interbreeding, yes, but triggered by what the offspring do, not what made them. If used improperly, it could just as easily demonize the parents to the rest of society for trying.

[The Rookie]

Agreed. Many cultures have historically been more aggressive and discriminative towards people of mixed blood lines. There's always the chance that that individual would be shunned by both species as 'an abomination'.

Humans have always been able to convince children together, but it's only quite recent that mixed couples are accepted so widely. Up until a hundred years ago a mixed race couple was illegal in the United States and people could face the death penalty.

[Bellhead]

From the get-go, there were two major things keeping humans and keidran apart: A. Looks B. Biological incompatibility.

You're right about those two, but those aren't the only ones.

You say that humans should accept them because they're cute, right? What about skunks? They have a beautiful coat of fur with smooth lines, perfectly semetrical.. and people still hate them, and want them gone. Same with mice. Same with snakes. The list goes on. There will always be the factor of physical beauty, but as with those I've mentioned as well as others, there will be the minority who will love them for it, and look beyond the side-effects, but they will always be just that, a minority, like Eric for instance. Physical beauty only goes so far.

Biological incompatibility is a factor, I agree, but I do not think that it is as big a factor as you see it. The ability to have children, as stated above, would create 100 labeled "abomination" for every ONE labeled "miracle", and that's pushing it. Prejudice is harsh, long, and severe. If you have a kid with a slave, that doesn't make you a lynchpin of the races, it makes you either an outcast or simply one of the crowd. Popular opinion is FAR too negative for something like that to have ANY positive effect.

The average human-Keidran relationship is not one you want to advertise, especially in such a divided world. You can't be a friend of both sides and be open about it, or you lose the favor of both sides. A varitable No Man's Land, if you will. A child born there is, by default of species, fair game for attacks from both sides, and those associated with them face the same fate.

In the world of Twokinds, just as ours used to be, the line can be walked, but it cannot be crossed peacefully. No offence, but a [censored] child of two races, who are at war with eachother, is just not going to be a good thing. No matter WHAT the political situation is, they would be controversial, and during a war between both sides, they would be a powder keg with its own lit fuse, ammunition and prpaganda for both. We say Flora's child, because there's no way the storyline would allow it to not be, but the chances are honestly right about 1 in... double the population of Mekkan, give or take a race.

You want proof? Romeo and Juliet. They feared for each other, and decided to marry in secret because of how violent each other's family was. Neither would have told their family unless the other's life depended on it. Now: Upon their marriage, if either family discovered the marriage, before too long, the other would become a target. If they were to have a child, the child would be seen as an enemy of both families, and would be worse off than either parent because of it. The only reason such a fued was ended was because those involved were influential to their houses. If, say, the human king (or whoever's at the top) married the queen of a Keidran tribe, both would be ridiculed, by both sides. If they had a kid, it would be killed, quickly. But if they both died, for each other, THEN AND ONLY THEN would ANYONE think of changing their ways.

Basically, it'd take more than anyone's got, and a lot longer than anyone alive would ever get to see, and that's in the best of cases, optimistically. MLK Jr broke ground, and that's STILL not complete, and he HAD his race on his side. You unterestimate how much force and time it takes to change a nation.

[Dadrobit]

I'm erring on the side of non-acceptance with the overwhelming majority.

We have a hard enough time accepting people who are of our own ethnicity, of our own communities, hell, sometimes of our own blood when they so much as have a goddamned unibrow. We have a nasty habit of either completely shunning folks, or in the best case scenario, just putting them in sideshow freak pens to gawk at. And we're none too picky when it comes to "freak" status. Stand a bit too tall or too short? Freakshow. Born without arms or legs? Freakshow. Lady with facial hair? Freakshow. And goodness forbid you have elephantiasis...

But hey, we actually have access to what a real life animal/human mix might be like with Hypertrichosis in a man named Stephan Bibrowski AKA Lionel The Lion Faced Boy. And when you look into it, hey look, what do ya know, his own mother gave him away at the age of four to a man who turned him into an "exhibit" for the majority of his life.

The absolute best that Flora and Traces child can hope for is either complete seclusion to prevent the knowledge of his/her existence from all but the closest of family and friends, or try and make it as a successful "freak exhibit" that doesn't get rotten vegetables tossed at him/her. I see no possible outcome for any realistic semblance of a normal life if the child shows both traits of his/her parents at a single time unless the child is gifted with powers of untold magnitude that allow him/her to control respect through force.

But is that a normal life?

And before you say, "But what about Karen? She lives an acceptable life no?"

Karen was not born as she is. She has had a majority of her life to establish within her community that she is indeed a human, and that her keidran traits are merely the result a a Grand Templar's meddling. We haven't really seen the reaction of an outsider to her appearance. And when she is seen in a crowded public area, she has to keep her ears hidden. Or otherwise you can see the reaction of burning rage from another wolf keidran when she claims to be Sythe's daughter.

I'd wager good money at a good amount of disrespect and suspicion geared her way when Group B eventually finds their way to the next town if she shows off her "traits".

[Bellhead]

As far as we have seen, humans and keidrans were on pretty good terms up until Trace went beserk and started a war.

And I quote, "relative peace". There was still a slave trade, which was still just as large, and just as violent. "Good terms", in this scenario, simply means that they aren't at each other's throats.

Sythe and several other keidran characters have spoken about living comfortable in human villages before the war. Even during the war, felids have their own shops and houses within Edinmire.
...
In addition, early on we see that there is an annual feast where all the species come together and enjoy themselves, leaving behind them prejudice and hatred. Or how about the page where Trace and his original wife pass the keidran in the field and wave to them politely?

Some areas are, and have always been, more peaceful than others, and it stands to reason that said areas would be very near the border, just as Sythe was, and right where Flora and co. are now.
Also, check the character page. Saria was a Keidran sympathiser and a freedom fighter, she would obviously wave. Trace, on the other hand, was only pretending. Note the sarcasm: "Oh, yeah. Sure." He would never have noticed had she not said anything.

True, there was the slave trade going on, but as we have seen the slave trade was not strictly a human vs keidran thing and the keidran even practiced it among themselves.

Slavery is not always as evil as it appears. And I know how bad it was, and I will not negate what has happened. I only say that slavery was once a punishment for severe crimes, as a form of forced labor. It fits that Keidran would have their own, instead of using jails, but as stated by Laura, wolf and dog Keidren were often hired to hunt for slaves for humans, but not the other way around. Would you pay to have somebody hunt for a slave, and accept them returning with a creature you consider an equal who could live unjudged in your society? I don't think so.

Thus, up until this war, it has been pretty well established that humans and keidran were on very friendly terms.

I cite Eric: "The FIRST Great War ended...", implying there had been at least one other since, not including the one started since he left the mainland. Going by Natani at the Festival of Beasts you mentioned, 300 years since the humans arrived, correct? 300 years, and now three wars, possibly more, between the same two groups of people. Doesn't really sound like "friendly" to me.

The war between humans and (specifically) wolf keidran was started because of the insanity of Trace, and though it may have created a void between the two species, I don't think its near as bad or long-lasting as you say it is.

So you don't believe me? If you're white, wear a black suit through a big city slum, or better yet a trailer park, and watch the heads turn. If you're not, wear jeans and a hoodie to a convenience store at 2 am. And this has been the same since ever.

People, and humans especially are, by nature, prone to exclude anyone different from themselves. I may underestimate the good in people, but you dramatically underestimate the bad. Words only take you so far, bud.