Calling Natani a girl?
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- Atashi_Desu
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Calling Natani a girl?
Am I the only one that is bothered when people refer to Natani as a female (in comments, fanfics, etc)? To me, it's confusing at the least when people say "She blahblahblah etc" when talking about Natani, and often I feel insulted on Natani's behalf (he would be very angry if you were calling him a girl to his face, wouldn't he?).
Seriously... am I the only one that calls Natani "him"?
Seriously... am I the only one that calls Natani "him"?
Natani + Keith = best ship!
"Sigh... How did you manage to lose your clothes this time?" -Zen
"I don't know! This just seems to keep happening!" -Natani
"Sigh... How did you manage to lose your clothes this time?" -Zen
"I don't know! This just seems to keep happening!" -Natani
- Artemis_II
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
Your not the only one. Everyone has the right to determine who they are and people should respect that choice.
- MuonNeutrino
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
I would like to use a gender neutral pronoun, but english doesn't really have those. The closest you really get is the singular 'they/them/their', and that still just sounds awkward.
I will admit that I'm one of the people who tends to default to the female pronouns, and to be honest I never even thought about it at first. I tried to rationalize it by saying I usually did it to distinguish Nat from Keith in sentences involving both of them since I'm so often talking about both of them at the same time, but really that's not true. Natani *would* probably hit me if I did it in front of him/her, but if I'm being honest it's really because on an emotional level Nat still feels more like a girl to me. It's not very PC, but even though intellectually I know that the mental outlook is more fundamental, emotionally my brain still goes 'boobs = girl!' and it makes sentences that refer to Nat as 'he' sound weird to me.
And yes, I know it's strange that Nat is probably my favorite character when I still have problems emotionally accepting his/her condition, but then again if humans were logical this would be a lot less messed up of a planet.
I will admit that I'm one of the people who tends to default to the female pronouns, and to be honest I never even thought about it at first. I tried to rationalize it by saying I usually did it to distinguish Nat from Keith in sentences involving both of them since I'm so often talking about both of them at the same time, but really that's not true. Natani *would* probably hit me if I did it in front of him/her, but if I'm being honest it's really because on an emotional level Nat still feels more like a girl to me. It's not very PC, but even though intellectually I know that the mental outlook is more fundamental, emotionally my brain still goes 'boobs = girl!' and it makes sentences that refer to Nat as 'he' sound weird to me.
And yes, I know it's strange that Nat is probably my favorite character when I still have problems emotionally accepting his/her condition, but then again if humans were logical this would be a lot less messed up of a planet.
Re: Calling Natani a girl?
No, you aren't the only one. Personal preference, I suppose, given the state of her damaged soul.
I call Natani a girl because she calls herself a girl when she is being candid with herself, her brother, Keith or anyone who knows her real history. Keith calls her a girl as well several times, to her or to himself. Her actual sexual feelings seem to be all female as far as I have seen. About the only time we see her in a male-like role with a female, she's trying to impress a girl in a tavern with some tale of her adventures or whatever. It is stated that she's bisexual, but as far as I can tell, she's a female bisexual that is (so far) more often attracted to males.
All that said, who knows what's in the future.
I call Natani a girl because she calls herself a girl when she is being candid with herself, her brother, Keith or anyone who knows her real history. Keith calls her a girl as well several times, to her or to himself. Her actual sexual feelings seem to be all female as far as I have seen. About the only time we see her in a male-like role with a female, she's trying to impress a girl in a tavern with some tale of her adventures or whatever. It is stated that she's bisexual, but as far as I can tell, she's a female bisexual that is (so far) more often attracted to males.
All that said, who knows what's in the future.
- Atashi_Desu
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
I always took Natani calling himself a girl in that scene as a disbelief that Keith could see his female body and be able to accept that he isn't a girl despite that. Like he says in his conversation with King Adelaide, women aren't considered strong in his society like they are in Basatin society. I figured he thought that, since Keith had seen the truth, he would only see Natani as a female anymore, and thus weak and needing help. I can see your argument, though, it does make sense from that perspective.
As to being attracted to Keith: I figure that, while his gender was destroyed by the spell and replaced with Zen's, the sexuality wasn't and is still Natani's original sexuality (since gender and sexuality are two completely different things and have nothing to do with each other, so there is no "female sexual feelings").
As to being attracted to Keith: I figure that, while his gender was destroyed by the spell and replaced with Zen's, the sexuality wasn't and is still Natani's original sexuality (since gender and sexuality are two completely different things and have nothing to do with each other, so there is no "female sexual feelings").
Natani + Keith = best ship!
"Sigh... How did you manage to lose your clothes this time?" -Zen
"I don't know! This just seems to keep happening!" -Natani
"Sigh... How did you manage to lose your clothes this time?" -Zen
"I don't know! This just seems to keep happening!" -Natani
- jacobc62
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
I just use the female pronouns because Natani is a girl. Her gender identity was replaced by Zen's when the ritual preformed to save her life was preformed, thus the whole "I'M A GUY! Well.... not really, but I identify as a guy!" thing.
"That poor, sexy [censored]...." -Evals Vaughan, October 2016
Re: Calling Natani a girl?
We have all the details, so there really isn't anything to argue. As far as pronouns, that's up to whoever is using them and how they think they should apply to the situation.
Just to be contentious and start something, I'll throw this out:
- Natani is physically a female.
- Being physically a female, her brain, being part of her physical body, is a female brain, which means she has all the female primary and secondary sexual characteristics - she goes through estrus, has boobs, and is attracted to males, etc.
- Her soul has a male identity. I'll assume that, being real in this universe, her soul does exist. Here we get existential - is her soul part of her body? Does it exist physically? Does it control her mind or does her mind control her soul? We're told she would have died without it. Does that mean that her original female soul is forever gone? When Natani dies, will her female soul still be out there "waiting" for the rest of her soul?
Lots of questions I'd like to know the answers to.
Just to be contentious and start something, I'll throw this out:
- Natani is physically a female.
- Being physically a female, her brain, being part of her physical body, is a female brain, which means she has all the female primary and secondary sexual characteristics - she goes through estrus, has boobs, and is attracted to males, etc.
- Her soul has a male identity. I'll assume that, being real in this universe, her soul does exist. Here we get existential - is her soul part of her body? Does it exist physically? Does it control her mind or does her mind control her soul? We're told she would have died without it. Does that mean that her original female soul is forever gone? When Natani dies, will her female soul still be out there "waiting" for the rest of her soul?
Lots of questions I'd like to know the answers to.
- AndreRhineDavis
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
Rafe and MuonNeutrino have pretty much said my thoughts exactly.
Basically that 1) English doesn't have a conventional 3rd person animate singular gender-neutral pronoun ("they" can be used when you're referring to a person in general, but not when you're referring to a *specific person*, it just sounds wrong), 2) The whole "soul transfer" thing has no equivalent in our world, so we don't exactly have a precedent for how to understand the details of Natani's gender identity and gender dysphoria and related issues when it's this "soul" floating around causing the problems rather than the body or brain, and 3) regardless of what I think I "should" be doing intellectually, referring to Natani as a "he", as he *would want*, out of respect... sometimes it just feels really wrong and out of place...
It's interesting actually; back when I was first introduced to Natani in the comic, even when I found out he physically *was* a girl, he still *felt* like a guy to me. Even though he has boobs and all, the way he acts is just... he just feels guyish. And hence when I first went on the forums, I referred to Natani as "he". Since then, I've made it a point to keep referring to him as "he", out of the whole "respecting his gender identity" thing. Just like I'd do in real life.
But recently, in my life, I've been questioning and rethinking these ideas about gender... trying to work out how this crazy world of ours works... and I've been rethinking about whether people can just "define" their gender to be whatever they say it is... and I guess I've sort of come to see gender now as something that should be objectively measured rather than subjectively declared. (I'm just not entirely sure precisely *how* to measure it... :/ ... but let me not bog you down with my personal issues). And of course, recently we have been seeing this new level of relationship between Natani and Keith, and a couple of times while making comments in the forums, I just slipped into referring to Natani as "she", because it just... felt appropriate. That's just how the thoughts got worded in my head before they slipped out into my fingers. So yeah, earlier today in fact, I just decided that I'm gonna call her whatever I feel is appropriate and feels right at the time. If he's acting masculine and feels guyish to me, I'll call him "he", if she's acting feminine and feels girlish to me, I'll call her "she". After all, this is what Tom does, I believe. Go to his deviantart page, you'll see some drawings he calls Natani he, some comics he calls her she... I guess it's just however he relates to her in that particular drawing. If Tom declared that we should refer to Natani one way or the other, I would, but since Tom himself alternates depending on context, I'll follow suit
it is quite weird... wouldn't that mean that she's technically half dead? soulwise? could that soul fragment come back as a ghost or something? Is it "large enough" to have independent thought? hehe... somehow I think we aren't meant to see Natani's "lost soul" in this sense.
Basically that 1) English doesn't have a conventional 3rd person animate singular gender-neutral pronoun ("they" can be used when you're referring to a person in general, but not when you're referring to a *specific person*, it just sounds wrong), 2) The whole "soul transfer" thing has no equivalent in our world, so we don't exactly have a precedent for how to understand the details of Natani's gender identity and gender dysphoria and related issues when it's this "soul" floating around causing the problems rather than the body or brain, and 3) regardless of what I think I "should" be doing intellectually, referring to Natani as a "he", as he *would want*, out of respect... sometimes it just feels really wrong and out of place...
It's interesting actually; back when I was first introduced to Natani in the comic, even when I found out he physically *was* a girl, he still *felt* like a guy to me. Even though he has boobs and all, the way he acts is just... he just feels guyish. And hence when I first went on the forums, I referred to Natani as "he". Since then, I've made it a point to keep referring to him as "he", out of the whole "respecting his gender identity" thing. Just like I'd do in real life.
But recently, in my life, I've been questioning and rethinking these ideas about gender... trying to work out how this crazy world of ours works... and I've been rethinking about whether people can just "define" their gender to be whatever they say it is... and I guess I've sort of come to see gender now as something that should be objectively measured rather than subjectively declared. (I'm just not entirely sure precisely *how* to measure it... :/ ... but let me not bog you down with my personal issues). And of course, recently we have been seeing this new level of relationship between Natani and Keith, and a couple of times while making comments in the forums, I just slipped into referring to Natani as "she", because it just... felt appropriate. That's just how the thoughts got worded in my head before they slipped out into my fingers. So yeah, earlier today in fact, I just decided that I'm gonna call her whatever I feel is appropriate and feels right at the time. If he's acting masculine and feels guyish to me, I'll call him "he", if she's acting feminine and feels girlish to me, I'll call her "she". After all, this is what Tom does, I believe. Go to his deviantart page, you'll see some drawings he calls Natani he, some comics he calls her she... I guess it's just however he relates to her in that particular drawing. If Tom declared that we should refer to Natani one way or the other, I would, but since Tom himself alternates depending on context, I'll follow suit
lol, I just got this mental image of Laura sitting in heaven with like a "half of Natani"...Rafe wrote:Does that mean that her original female soul is forever gone? When Natani dies, will her female soul still be out there "waiting" for the rest of her soul?
it is quite weird... wouldn't that mean that she's technically half dead? soulwise? could that soul fragment come back as a ghost or something? Is it "large enough" to have independent thought? hehe... somehow I think we aren't meant to see Natani's "lost soul" in this sense.
- anonfox123
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
I use the male pronouns when talking to people who might not know about Nat's issue. That or I swap whenever I feel like it.
What I don't like are people who throw a hissy fit when others use the "wrong" pronouns and try to call them out as close-minded and sexist. I've ran into some of those...
What I don't like are people who throw a hissy fit when others use the "wrong" pronouns and try to call them out as close-minded and sexist. I've ran into some of those...
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- AndreRhineDavis
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
Not always.Nightfirecat wrote:I call Natani a him, since that's how Tom refers to him. (and how Natani refers to himself as well)
Simple as that.
- Zylver
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
I still prefer to call Natani a her, even if she has a damaged personality repaired with the fragments of her brother's identity.
And even if she is still desperate to convince herself (and others) that she is a he, even if you guys run into her personally and at first time, all of you would call Natani a her!
Of course she could convince you the opposite and acting in politeness you would call her a he ...
... but not me, because where would be the fun in that? An angry girl can be very cute most of the time!
And even if she is still desperate to convince herself (and others) that she is a he, even if you guys run into her personally and at first time, all of you would call Natani a her!
Of course she could convince you the opposite and acting in politeness you would call her a he ...
... but not me, because where would be the fun in that? An angry girl can be very cute most of the time!
Of the four elements, air, earth, water, and fire, man stole only one from the gods.
Fire.
And with it, man forged his will upon the world. - Anonymus
Re: Calling Natani a girl?
One of my best friends has a daughter that had gender issues, eventually deciding that she should be a man. She was married to a man when she decided to have operations to 'correct' herself, and my friend now has a son instead of a daughter. I refer to his son as a 'he' now, because that is what he is. He was forced to get a divorce by the state they lived in, because that state does not recognize same-sex marriages, but last I heard, he and his former husband still live together.
Another time, I was working at a store that sold firearms, and a lady came in to pick up a purchase... but I could not release the pistol to her because her photo ID showed a picture of a man. She had on a fair bit of make-up and I could not tell if the man in the photo ID was her, or not. (She was still pre-op at that time, btw.) I apologized to her for the problem, but that, legally, I could not give her the pistol without positive identification. I used the word 'Ma'am' when speaking to her the entire time, again, because that was what she was.
I refer to Natani as female, because reading the comic that is how I see her. IF I was ever in the comic and met her personally, I would most likely refer to him as male, as that would be what I'd see him as. Also, it would keep him from hurting me... hopefully.
Another time, I was working at a store that sold firearms, and a lady came in to pick up a purchase... but I could not release the pistol to her because her photo ID showed a picture of a man. She had on a fair bit of make-up and I could not tell if the man in the photo ID was her, or not. (She was still pre-op at that time, btw.) I apologized to her for the problem, but that, legally, I could not give her the pistol without positive identification. I used the word 'Ma'am' when speaking to her the entire time, again, because that was what she was.
I refer to Natani as female, because reading the comic that is how I see her. IF I was ever in the comic and met her personally, I would most likely refer to him as male, as that would be what I'd see him as. Also, it would keep him from hurting me... hopefully.
Re: Calling Natani a girl?
I tend to call Natani a "she" more for practical purpose, making it easier to identify the characters in my sentences. Of course, if I was ever in the comic, and met the group, I'd force myself to call Natani a "he", specially in front of others, but in my mind, I can't help but see Natani as a "she". Not because I don't accept what she sees herself like, but because she feels like a girl to me. I can't help it, I see her as a girl. Specially because she has been displaying more and more girlish behavior. And no, I don't believe in labeling people according to their behavior, but since this is a comic, I just end up calling her a "she", as I said, out of practicality.
I this page here, she thought of herself as a happy girly girl for a moment, but quickly dismissed the thought. But to me it seemed more that the reason was that she "chose" to reprimand herself about thinking it, rather than simply finding the idea of dressing as a woman silly and nonsensical.
She did say some times now that her connection to Zen is getting weaker. It could be for a number of reasons. One, being that they are too far away. Two, perhaps with time, even souls can heal? I mean, if given enough time (More that she could, when she had been cursed), perhaps her soul could return to the normal state. And in that case, it could also mean, that her view of her own gender is changing back to how she was born. But she doesn't acknowledge that because she's too used to fighting the very idea.AndreRhineDavis wrote:lol, I just got this mental image of Laura sitting in heaven with like a "half of Natani"...Rafe wrote:Does that mean that her original female soul is forever gone? When Natani dies, will her female soul still be out there "waiting" for the rest of her soul?
it is quite weird... wouldn't that mean that she's technically half dead? soulwise? could that soul fragment come back as a ghost or something? Is it "large enough" to have independent thought? hehe... somehow I think we aren't meant to see Natani's "lost soul" in this sense.
I this page here, she thought of herself as a happy girly girl for a moment, but quickly dismissed the thought. But to me it seemed more that the reason was that she "chose" to reprimand herself about thinking it, rather than simply finding the idea of dressing as a woman silly and nonsensical.
Fear is not "evil". It is to know your own weakness. If you know your weakness, people can become strong as well as gentle.
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
That's probably because you don't have a friend or loved one who has to live in fear of those judgmental souls every day because they feel justified assaulting or even murdering Transsexual people. Purposefully using the wrong pronouns is certainly less grievous than that, but if you've ever been bullied or called a racial slur then you should be familiar with how much it hurts. Honestly it's just a matter of trying to treat the people around you like, well, people. It doesn't cost you anything to be respectful to others.anonfox123 wrote: What I don't like are people who throw a hissy fit when others use the "wrong" pronouns and try to call them out as close-minded and sexist. I've ran into some of those...
Now having said that, this doesn't apply to Natani that well since he wasn't born that way. I believe that the end result was that he is well and truly a man, given that he refers to himself as such and more importantly appears with a male body when he manifests to his brother telepathically. I'm too lazy to find those pages right now but it has happened. I suppose I can understand how there's room to believe it doesn't count since the cause was magic instead of birth.
- Zylver
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Re: Calling Natani a girl?
Of course it would be insensitive, that is why everyone is settling down with the fact, that Natani is indeed a she...Nightfirecat wrote:Considering that the entire cast of characters has met him under normal circumstances and come to think of Natani as a guy, I don't think we would do differently. Does that mean we should think otherwise simply because we see that under his exterior, he has different parts?Zylver wrote:I still prefer to call Natani a her, even if she has a damaged personality repaired with the fragments of her brother's identity.
And even if she is still desperate to convince herself (and others) that she is a he, even if you guys run into her personally and at first time, all of you would call Natani a her!
Of course she could convince you the opposite and acting in politeness you would call her a he ...
... but not me, because where would be the fun in that? An angry girl can be very cute most of the time!
Of course it's complicated by his and Zen's soul melding business, but the closest analogue I can think of in our world would be somebody growing up only to find that as more time goes on, they feel less and less at peace with their gender, until they realize that they feel they're confident to say that they identify as the opposite gender. Wouldn't it be insensitive to ignore that?
This is the main reason why I would not call Natani a he might sound suicidal or foolish, but I would use this as a little joke on herHoppy wrote: Also, it would keep him from hurting me... hopefully.
Of course, don't think I would intolerant with her: if she is so determined to consider herself HE, I would leave it to her but keep the addressing SHE mainly for cover and teasing... but mostly teasing
Don't forget that on the Basitian Islands were a giant magical cataclysm, that might have done something with Natani's personality or simply screwed something up with the soul link between her and Zen Who knows (okay Tom probably does... or not ) what did all that unleashed magical energy with the magical link between Natani and Zen?xamali wrote:She did say some times now that her connection to Zen is getting weaker. It could be for a number of reasons. One, being that they are too far away. Two, perhaps with time, even souls can heal? I mean, if given enough time (More that she could, when she had been cursed), perhaps her soul could return to the normal state. And in that case, it could also mean, that her view of her own gender is changing back to how she was born. But she doesn't acknowledge that because she's too used to fighting the very idea.
I this page here, she thought of herself as a happy girly girl for a moment, but quickly dismissed the thought. But to me it seemed more that the reason was that she "chose" to reprimand herself about thinking it, rather than simply finding the idea of dressing as a woman silly and nonsensical.
Or another guess circling in other topics for a long time now: part of Laura's soul healer Natani's female identity when she sacrificed herself for the group
Who knows?
Of the four elements, air, earth, water, and fire, man stole only one from the gods.
Fire.
And with it, man forged his will upon the world. - Anonymus