Calling Natani a girl?

[Ponjos]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

[Fakefox]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

About as much as George Takei

[victorymon]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

About as much as George Takei

who?

[Fakefox]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

About as much as George Takei

who?

You've never heard of George Takei?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nSKkwzwdW4

[obi-wan]

You, Marnath and Fakefox just annoyed me, and never showed me none evidence...Marnath, evidence are any strps to proof your point.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=344
Dude I'm only annoying you because I'm right and have been forcefully showing why I'm right, for example the above strip and the one Kyritt posted are the evidence that you blatantly ignore, closing your eyes isn't us not showing you evidence, it's just plain and simple denial.

Beyond that, you seem to be mistaking us being right to "imposing" our views on you, if that's how you feel then don't post in here, I'm not going to go into detail on how offensive you've been to not just trans people but also those who want to share their own opinions which are not your own.

I'm offering to just stop talking to you, you obviously can't handle seeing someone simply saying something you don't agree with, all you have to do is ask.

I have not insulted you or any trans people in any way, but you have insulted me, and that is called flaming, and is not allowed by the rules of this forum, so my advice is stop it now, before be banned

[victorymon]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

About as much as George Takei

who?

You've never heard of George Takei?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nSKkwzwdW4

never heard of...

[The Rookie]

never heard of...

Basically,George Takei is a well known actor famous for A) Playing an important role in the original Star Trek series. B) Being one of the first openly gay celebrities (Might need correction on this).

So when Fakefox said "About as much as George Takei" he meant that although George Takei has kissed a man he is still regarded as a guy, and Natani should have the same reasoning applied to him/her.

[TedBundy]

When it comes to referring to people the best rule to follow is to call them what they want to be called.

If someone presents themselves as a 'male' then they probably want you to refer to them using masculine pronouns. The same thing goes with someone's name.

For example: When it was revealed that Bradley Manning was trans and referred to herself as "Chelsea Manning" the news organizations were very reluctant to call her 'she' or 'Chelsea'. The Wikipedia group in charge of the Bradley Manning page had an enormous argument over what they should call her, stating she has not had a legal name change and therefore you shouldn't refer to her as Chelsea or 'She' until she underwent surgery. However this is not how we treat people in practice.
If you meet someone who was given a strange birthname, let's say "Purple Haze", and they tell you they would like you to refer to them as "mike", then you'd be a douche to call them anything other than what they asked you to call them. It doesn't matter that their name is still "Purple Haze" since they don't refer to themselves as such.

So back to Natani. If he is presenting himself as a male and wishes to be seen as a male, then refer to him as 'he'. If that changes then refer to them with respect to their presentation at that future time.

[imalbert]

So when Fakefox said "About as much as George Takei" he meant that although George Takei has kissed a man he is still regarded as a guy, and Natani should have the same reasoning applied to him/her.

Fakefox's argument still isn't valid because he is using the actions of a homosexual male as evidence that Natani remains transgendered. To my knowledge, Mr. Takei has never made any claims to being female. It's an apples and oranges argument.

[The Rookie]

So when Fakefox said "About as much as George Takei" he meant that although George Takei has kissed a man he is still regarded as a guy, and Natani should have the same reasoning applied to him/her.

Fakefox's argument still isn't valid because he is using the actions of a homosexual male as evidence that Natani remains transgendered. To my knowledge, Mr. Takei has never made any claims to being female. It's an apples and oranges argument.

Oh definitely, very different circumstances. I was just trying to help explain what I think Fakefox was trying to get across for victorymon, who seemed a tad confused.

[Fakefox]

You, Marnath and Fakefox just annoyed me, and never showed me none evidence...Marnath, evidence are any strps to proof your point.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=344
Dude I'm only annoying you because I'm right and have been forcefully showing why I'm right, for example the above strip and the one Kyritt posted are the evidence that you blatantly ignore, closing your eyes isn't us not showing you evidence, it's just plain and simple denial.

Beyond that, you seem to be mistaking us being right to "imposing" our views on you, if that's how you feel then don't post in here, I'm not going to go into detail on how offensive you've been to not just trans people but also those who want to share their own opinions which are not your own.

I'm offering to just stop talking to you, you obviously can't handle seeing someone simply saying something you don't agree with, all you have to do is ask.

\

I have not insulted you or any trans people in any way, but you have insulted me, and that is called flaming, and is not allowed by the rules of this forum, so my advice is stop it now, before be banned

Now that is you actually trying to "impose" on be by threatening to have me banned, and until I hear differently from a mod my answer to you is "no" also there's still evidence that you're wrong, and you haven't answered me or some of the other people here, what you've done is still what I've said you've been doing, ignoring the truth and insulting people by saying they're annoying and never providing evidence when it's in the quote box you're replying to.

So do you, of your own free will without any conditions, accept my offer to just stop talking to you or do you decline the above offer?

So when Fakefox said "About as much as George Takei" he meant that although George Takei has kissed a man he is still regarded as a guy, and Natani should have the same reasoning applied to him/her.

Fakefox's argument still isn't valid because he is using the actions of a homosexual male as evidence that Natani remains transgendered. To my knowledge, Mr. Takei has never made any claims to being female. It's an apples and oranges argument.

I actually would've said Buck Angel but I can't find any pictures of him kissing another dude without the porn, also I was making a panel shuffle involve George Takei.
Linked due to hugeness:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... adshot.jpg
I don't think you can call the dude above a girl can you?

Besides Natani's spotting a pretty manly beard compared to the much smoother chin lines of female characters and I haven't seen Tom add feminine eyelashes lately.
Also he's doing some very stereotypical trans male stuff like tying down his boobs, disguising signs of being female such as scent and is working on getting the magical equivalent of a functional sex change.
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=697
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=698
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/archive.php?p=699

[avwolf]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

No, much to Natani's own surprise.

To pour fuel on the fire: Even though it's played for laughs, the final panel of this early comic -- "I am a guy! Truely!" -- probably illustrates Natani's thought processes the best. In fact, Natani consistently insists, publicly and privately, that she's a man at heart. I argue that Natani's feminine side is not as wholly destroyed as she claims or would like to believe, and I've put forth the idea that Natani's gender dysphoria is a construct, built of a desire to be a strong man more than the actual feeling of being a man, but there's no denying that Natani believes, or wants to believe, that she is in fact male -- that her self conception is male -- despite her body's form. I may doubt Natani's commitment, but I do not doubt what Natani would like to be true.

You know, when I first joined the forums, it was commonly believed that Natani was a male wolf who'd been cursed with a female body; much like Mike's eventual situation thanks to Nora's illusion. It took a long while and several flashback sequences before it was clear that Natani was a female wolf with a male mind instead. And we'd gotten into just as heated arguments back then.

And now for the Moderator Voice. obi-wan, Fakefox et al. have been making forceful arguments, as have you. We play rough in debate; we have for longer than most of us have been on the forums. While Fakefox may have made some comments which do not express full respect, he (or she or whatever) is not alone in that: not all of your comments have kept in mind that we are to treat one another with respect, even in the most robust of argument. However, Fakefox has only come close to disrepect, he has not flamed you; there have been no ad hominin attacks and no name-calling; the closest he's come is treating your intentions as suspect and offered to stop arguing with you because it's clear that neither of you is going to persuade the other of anything. As you are at an impasse, that seems fair. Regardless, I have not seen evidence of any true flaming in this thread; straight being told you are wrong may not be effective persuasively, but it is not flaming.

I'd suggest folks give this topic a bit of a breather, let your tempers settle before we actually do get into the territory where we need to start taking administrative action. I again reiterate that this is a topic for debate: leave your mind open to persuasion. Offer your opponents in debate the utmost respect and honor: they feel as strongly as you do, and have come to their point of view via their own esteemed intellect and life experiences. If you accept no challenge to your point of view, instead support those who believe as you do, but allow them to argue the point rather than arguing yourself: an immovable object meeting an inexorable force entertains and persuades no one. Support your perspective with evidence, rhetoric, and anecdotes (if necessary). But above everything, offer respect and honor, even, especially if it is not returned.

Playing rough is a privilege, one that I enormously enjoy. If we cannot handle that privilege, I fear I will be force to take it away. Please, please do not make me lock this thread. I have not had such an intellectually stimulating debate in the Comic Board in a long while.

[Bellhead]

Well said, Avwolf.

On topic: Given this page, I feel it appropriate torefer to Natani as a female, and a woman. However, she is certainly not a girl, in the sense that she acts mature as much as possible. She is merely a woman with little to no experience in matters of the heart.
This is where the kiss comes in. Note in the current page, how her heart is beating harder and harder, and she starts sweating and changing her mind at the last moments. To me, this says that she has decided to make a step she is not truely ready for, but one that she is willing to take, in the direction of love toward Keith. As such, she is genuinely accepting her woman half, and is learning to let it become a part of her.

[TedBundy]

So... is Natani a girl, now that she kissed Keith?

No, much to Natani's own surprise.

To pour fuel on the fire: Even though it's played for laughs, the final panel of this early comic -- "I am a guy! Truely!" -- probably illustrates Natani's thought processes the best. In fact, Natani consistently insists, publicly and privately, that she's a man at heart. I argue that Natani's feminine side is not as wholly destroyed as she claims or would like to believe, and I've put forth the idea that Natani's gender dysphoria is a construct, built of a desire to be a strong man more than the actual feeling of being a man, but there's no denying that Natani believes, or wants to believe, that she is in fact male -- that her self conception is male -- despite her body's form. I may doubt Natani's commitment, but I do not doubt what Natani would like to be true.

You know, when I first joined the forums, it was commonly believed that Natani was a male wolf who'd been cursed with a female body; much like Mike's eventual situation thanks to Nora's illusion. It took a long while and several flashback sequences before it was clear that Natani was a female wolf with a male mind instead. And we'd gotten into just as heated arguments back then.

The situation with Natani reminds me very strongly of Hedwig in the play/movie "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" (which I recommend highly).

From Wikipedia: "Hansel Schmidt is an East German "slip of a girly boy" who loves rock music, and is stuck in East Berlin until he meets Luther Robinson, an American Soldier. Luther falls in love with Hansel and the two decide to marry. This plan will allow Hansel to leave communist East Germany for the capitalist West. However, in order to be married, the couple must consist of a man and a woman. Hansel's mother, Hedwig, gives her child her name and passport and finds a doctor to perform a sex change. The operation is botched, however, leaving Hansel – now Hedwig – with a dysfunctional one-inch mound of flesh between her legs, the eponymous "Angry Inch"."


Basically Hedwig is a gay man but after receiving a sex change to leave communist Berlin is stuck in the body of a "woman". Hedwig tries to be a woman since he is stuck in that body but eventually comes to the terms that he is not and is still a man. The fact that Hedwig acts "girly" has nothing to do with being a woman but rather society making "femininity" identify exclusively with women, causing his confusion on what he is.

I believe the same sort of thing describes this situation perfectly as well.

[Schrodinger]

Well said, Avwolf.

On topic: Given this page, I feel it appropriate torefer to Natani as a female, and a woman. However, she is certainly not a girl, in the sense that she acts mature as much as possible. She is merely a woman with little to no experience in matters of the heart.
This is where the kiss comes in. Note in the current page, how her heart is beating harder and harder, and she starts sweating and changing her mind at the last moments. To me, this says that she has decided to make a step she is not truely ready for, but one that she is willing to take, in the direction of love toward Keith. As such, she is genuinely accepting her woman half, and is learning to let it become a part of her.

Just because Natani decided to plant her feet and stop running from the situation doesn't mean she isn't frightened or at the very least unnerved by it. This is still something that flies in the face of her constructed gender identity and she's handling it with the same dread and anticipation of a child getting a shot. Also like an injection, she's surprised at how quick and painless the whole affair was. I'm interested to see how she reacts now.