Biology and Military

[Jetman]

I don't know how much this has been discussed, but we know the Keidran and Basitin forces are probably organized in a different manner than the human one. Some of this is probably cultural, but the rest is probably due to differences in biology.

For example, Keidran might have an easier or a harder time marching than humans; easier because of their foot pads, but harder due to lack of footwear, while Basitins have been shown to have higher pain tolerance than humans, so that might change a number of factors. It may also be that the non-humans can be weaker/stronger? Heal faster? Replace losses faster due to (possibly) higher breeding rates? Be able to smell the enemy before seeing them?

[tony1695]

I'd guess that the Keidran would be better at guerilla fighting, similar to the Viet Cong. After all, they live in the forests, so know how to get around with ease. Their enhanced hearing and sense of smell means that ambushing them would be a lot harder than on humans. Plus, if I'm not sorely mistaken, most, if not all, Keidran have some knowledge on hunting, and could simply transfer the skills from one kind of prey (food) to another (humans).
Basitans, on the other hand... Well, the ambushing point still stands, what with the fact they can hear a foetus' heartbeat. And the pain tolerance would mean that they could fight for longer.

That's all I have right now. I might come back later.

[Jetman]

Discipline might be another factor. While the Basitin are hyperbolically inclined to obey orders, the Keidran are not, and may suffer from issues of organization, especially during the seasons when the females are in heat. Then again, they might be able to sublimate the urge to have sex into violence? I know that is an odd thing to think about, but it might have something to do with it... in the case of the basitins, this might also be the case, as they are only supposed to have sex during a single week per year.

[tyber13]

wasnt there a thread on how guns vs templar did nothing cuz templar are supposed one-man armies?

So wouldnt it not matter? a few templars, apparently, could wipe out all the basitins easily with their magic.

[tony1695]

a few templars, apparently, could wipe out all the basitins easily with their magic.

Until a few skilled Basitan archers put arrows through each Templar's throat. Try casting magic when you can't breathe, and have a possible broken neck.

[tyber13]

I remember this being covered as well.
The Templars have the ability of magical shielding, so couldn't they just shield themselves the entire time?

[Schrodinger]

I remember this being covered as well.
The Templars have the ability of magical shielding, so couldn't they just shield themselves the entire time?

Do you have any idea how mentally taxing that is?

[Talaisan]

I remember this being covered as well.
The Templars have the ability of magical shielding, so couldn't they just shield themselves the entire time?

Do you have any idea how mentally taxing that is?

Well... no, because real world experience is unable to provide a comparison.

The Templars are the classic mounted knight in full armor. They look invincible. Until you pile a few dozen hungry, pissed off, desperate peasants on them. Then they just look like pancakes.

From long experience in various games and fictions, the best way to take out a templar would be a few harriers to occupy their thinking, and a few archers to perforate them when they lose focus.

[tyber13]

well then i suppose that would mean it would take quite a few people to take down one templar.
How about a group of templars followed by the rest of the human armies? Unless the basitan have more cities than that one, they wont be able to do much about the humans.

[Talaisan]

I think there's a distinct difference between what you're proposing and the average Templar. None of the Masters, or order masters, is a good baseline from which to draw a good understanding of the Templar's battle strength. Because, like it or not, no single person shy of an actual god (and even then, not all of them) can single handedly win a full scale war. I would even argue against the ability of an individual to win a single battle by his lonesome, with the exception of a skilled general who directs the action flawlessly. And even then, he's not alone, he's directing the machinery of war, hundreds or thousands of other people who each play a role.

If it takes 4 to 6 individuals to kill a single Templar (I'm not going to accept any more as needed. No one is good enough to deal with six threats at once save Trace. And he's far from average. And he can only pull it off because he's A) Gone over to the Dark Side temporarily, and B) He kills them before they can turn into actual threats), that's the rough equivalent of what's typically used to deal with a lone emplaced gun in modern times. Forget video games, where a lone soldier can mow down a brigade without stopping to take a pee. Using 6 people to deal with one major threat in relative safety is a simple tactical necessity. You send a half dozen of your best to take care of the enemy's force multiplier, and then you mop up the rest.

The Basitin are at a bit of a disadvantage on one side, as they do not possess magic users of their own (Eastern Basitin, anyway. Something tells me that Western Basitin might not have the same problems) but they make up for it by not being afraid of ANYTHING. Seriously, you cannot shock and awe the Basitin. It has to be a victory by attrition, and in that kind of war the more durable and disciplined side will eventually win out, regardless of flashy extras.

Keidran have their own magic, and superior ambush ability. Templars working in small groups ahead of the main force (where such shock and awe assets are best employed) are better known as "Juicy, High Priority Targets" and a Keidran war leader would do well to send people like Zen after them.

Templar are a military asset to be sure, but they're far from an "I Win" button. Now, a whole army of Templar would be a different story, but templar are not an army. They're a smallish order that's only had a few years of militant training and reorganization. Right now they serve better as a source of fear than as an actual weapon.

[Talonmaster Zso]

For example, Keidran might have an easier or a harder time marching than humans; easier because of their foot pads, but harder due to lack of footwear,

Footpads wouldn't help at all, and if they can't be combined with boots and the like would most probably hinder.

I'm not too sure of the quality of living in Twokinds, but I think it's high enough that the average soldier can be expected to have at least some sort of footware (for humans). As such, most / all human soldiers could readily (by default) be expected to have either boots or shoes of some type. When you combine the advantages multiple types of footware can provide, that you're not stepping with your actual feet, and so on, it comes in handy. Imagine, for instance, a human fortification using caltrops: Make the barbs thick enough that the footpads are of no help, but small enough that booted / shoed feet will be fine, and you have a way to close off an entire venue of attack from Kiedran (if they can't use footware).

Replace losses faster due to (possibly) higher breeding rates?

This would be the case with Kiedran. If I recall right, they're fully "developed" once they're about 7-10 years old.

That's a big deal. In seven to ten years time, you can have a new generation of physically "peak" soldiers. Humans and Basitans, meanwhile, will still be almost twice as long from their next generation being capable of fighting at their physical peak.

This is mixed. In extended campaigns that last only about 5-10 years, the Kiedran will much more readily be able to replace losses. They can try the meatgrinder approach, as the costs of maintaining a Kiedran soldier from infancy to "adulthood" will be lesser (especially if comparing to Templars, who most probably need even more material cost to train than a soldier given crude weaponry, so-so armor, and told to kill as much as they can before they die). In turn, though, longer or shorter campaigns would go toward the Human and Basitan advantages: Longer times to train soldiers (so you could have much more disciplined and martially-inclined soldiers), that your soldiers are combat capable much longer (A human or Basitan can, even in the Medieval setting of TK, probably last as a soldier longer than a Kiedran can even live) meaning you can use the same soldier longer (without having to retrain) as well as draw upon their experience (after about, say, ten years in a campaign, a Basitan or Human veteran can still serve and teach from the front for many more years, whereas for the Kiedran it'd be like a Korean War veteran serving on the front in Desert Storm), etcetera.

Be able to smell the enemy before seeing them?

This wouldn't be much of an advantage for warfare, unless we're speaking small engagements. It is, quite simply, very hard to hide a force of a couple hundred / thousand / more marching infantry, let alone war machine and cavalry support. If they do achieve the element of surprise, it's often going to be through a venue that attack wasn't expected or a forced march that crossed much more distance than the other faction was expecting and thus getting a positioning that is more favorable for yourself / puts the opponent in a less favorable position.

One of the chief Basitan advantages, mind, is one they're (luckily for other factions) unable to use: Biological warfare. If Basitans weren't as honorable as they were, strapping a few plague-riddled bodies to some catapults and firing them into cities / areas they're putting to siege would work readily to their favor. After all, Basitans are disease & poison resistant: The other factions are not. Even if the disease can magically be counter-acted, that's an asset that is being sapped / removed at minimal cost to yourself (Cost of a plague-victim: Acquiring the body, lugging it to area of fire, firing it. Cost of magical healing: Training of magical healer, mana stones / supplies for magical healer, work removing plague-parts if they happen to land in water supplies or food stores...). If Basitans were inclined to use such tactics, it'd give them a notable edge even against magic users (at least, magic users that care about their people).


Fur coats really aren't that helpful in regard to a campaign, offering no particular advantages except perhaps light armor that also doubles as a potential source of infection (there's a reason clothing getting inside injuries was considered bad: Fur isn't going to be much better). Someone may say "But they keep you warm!": So does clothing, but clothing can also be taken off should situation demand it (you can tear off burning clothing / armor depending on the severity, or don lighter clothing should you be fighting in a desert theatre. Fur? Not so much). Same goes for claws and fangs / sharp teeth: They have minor advantages, but if you've gotten to the point you need to fight with such you're already at a disadvantage as even Dagger >>>>>>>>>>> Claws, due to reach and the fact that you can block with a dagger (even if poorly) / do deeper injuries. Teeth also work on the principle that you're putting your head as close to someone as you can: I shouldn't need to point out the flaw in basing your attack plan around the need to put your face as close to the guy with a sharp, pointy, six-foot stick as you can.

Muzzles would prove a bit problematic in regard to helmets, as you'd need more materials to make them full-enclosing, and the degree of vision impairment would also (most probably) be increased. Basitan faces, to my understanding, minimally "jut", so this isn't as much a deal for them as Kiedran (Particularly Wolf Kiedran, who are heavily limited in facial protection. Though I doubt it'll ever be addressed in comic, you can imagine what a sword slice solidly connecting to a muzzle would do, and obviously it's not pretty). Tails also provide a liability, being similarly difficult to armor, but then they're much less a "fatality" time of removal than "mission-kill" by completely throwing off the victim's sense of balance / excruciating pain by severing something directly connected to the CNS / Spinal Column.

Overall, I would agree with the assessment that Kiedran don't do "traditional" warfare, but instead guerilla. Their lack of general life expectancy means disciplined militaries are more costly. Their inability to use heavy armor / protect themselves as readily as other races (barring magic), though not as important overall (most casualties aren't exactly going to be related to facial or tail-related injuries, but more torso-injuries, and there a Kiedran is no more vulnerable than a human besides the minor "fur infection" bit), still points to not playing to another side's advantage. They have sharper senses that, while of no use in massed warfare (Castle that way, big dust cloud is moving army, big trail of boats is support line), can be effective when trying hit-and-run. If basitans decide to fight "dirty", the lack of overall fortifications reduces the effectiveness of many BOW's (especially since they can't replicate spell BOW's due to Basitan magical limitations).

Humans, well, they continue their role as a jack-of-all-trades, but in this case they can be the masters of Magical warfare and can - if they dedicate the material costs - be a pretty close rival to Basitans in terms of equipment. They aren't going to win guerilla warfare unless they have some mages backing them up, but for the most part they don't need to engage in such. Biological warfare they have an advantage when going against Kiedran (barring Basitans going after major population centers, which would probably be a taboo overtop another taboo), but are pretty much SoL against Basitans.

Basitans would work best as a conventional military, with a higher degree of armor per average soldier (and, most probably, better discipline / standard of living or health). They lack any significant magical presence, but if the enemy becomes reliant on mana-stones (Kiedran, for instance), that's an advantage as well in that the Kiedran cannot resupply through conquered territories: They have to import / provide all their own, meaning that even stuff lying around has to be worked by imported labor. Their equipment, considering the quality, would also probably be "lootable" only insofar as weapons and melting down armor for new metals (as plate armor tends to be personally fitted, so it is unlikely for someone else to be capable of wearing it). A good "tactic" for them might very well be to do a "scorched earth" policy, when they don't have to fight leaving polluted water supplies and sealing off access to mana stones while - when they do fight - doing the same but now bloodying their opponents' noses.

Of course, that - again - seems un-Basitan, so instead being better at conventional warfare with their average trooper looks to be their best bet. If Basitans felt the need to fight dirty, their poison and disease resistances would provide a pretty noticeable advantage against Humans, and they already don't leave much of value for Kiedrans should they lose a bastion.

[tony1695]

I had not thought that the lack of footwear could be used against Keidran, and maybe even Basitan, forces. I know that Basitans wear foot coverings, but a good portion of the foot is still exposed.
As for setting them on fire, well... Yeah, their only line of defence against that would be to jump into a river, or wear wet clothing to make them harder to ignite while sacrificing speed. Or a mage, but that would be counter-productive as a mage would be better used for destroying siege engines and fortifications from a distance.
I think that even a number of human soldiers would have trouble taking down a Basitan, though. In Warcraft 3 terms, an Orc Grunt is at least twice, maybe three times, as hardy as the Human Footman, and hit a lot harder. The Basitans are basically orcs in that they are really hard to kill. After all, Keith took an arrow through the gut, got up, and drove a sword through Zen's back. Add the fact he wasn't armoured, and hadn't received all the proper training customary to his race, and we're looking at a lot of problems the humans are going to have to go against. I think it's safe to say it'll take at least 5 human soldiers to take down only one Basitan soldier.
Maybe we could think about it in Starcraft terms? Humans are Terrans, a balance. Keidran are Zerg, fast, not powerful on their own but dangerous in groups. Basitans are Protoss, stupidly hard to kill, short of a ballista arrow being successfully launched through their gut and pinning them to a tree or wall.

[Talonmaster Zso]

I think that even a number of human soldiers would have trouble taking down a Basitan, though. In Warcraft 3 terms, an Orc Grunt is at least twice, maybe three times, as hardy as the Human Footman, and hit a lot harder.

To my understanding, Basitans aren't quite that strong over a regular human. Toughness, possibly (Keith did take a beating when Natani and her brother went after Trace and Flora), especially when combined with metal armor. I'd think their advantage more lies within an average equipment and training advantage that was supplemented by physical "buffs", though, and not the other way around.

The Basitans are basically orcs in that they are really hard to kill. After all, Keith took an arrow through the gut, got up, and drove a sword through Zen's back.

That doesn't exactly speak of a superhuman durability, note. Arrows aren't like portrayed in games, wherein a guy can shrug off a half-dozen, but at the same time a solitary arrow - depending on where it hits - could potentially not even mission-kill someone.

Add the fact he wasn't armoured, and hadn't received all the proper training customary to his race, and we're looking at a lot of problems the humans are going to have to go against. I think it's safe to say it'll take at least 5 human soldiers to take down only one Basitan soldier.

I wouldn't say that's safe at all, but that's more because when you increase the number of people fighting against someone at once the number necessary to "win" dramatically decreases. For instance: Have one of your friends try to punch you, and try avoiding their punches. Okay. Now try getting two of your friends to punch you, you again on your own trying to avoid the punches. Then move on to three. And four.

It's sorta like that, but at once very similar and very different. When fighting as a regiment there's a limit to how many people can attack someone at once, but there's still that fact to keep in mind. Of course, morale must also be remembered too (Four v One has a definite morale advantage to the four at the start. If the four suddenly are dropped to two, though, that works against them and to the one's advantage).

Maybe we could think about it in Starcraft terms? Humans are Terrans, a balance. Keidran are Zerg, fast, not powerful on their own but dangerous in groups. Basitans are Protoss, stupidly hard to kill, short of a ballista arrow being successfully launched through their gut and pinning them to a tree or wall.

A Ballista would be overkill for a Basitan if it hit directly, plain and simple. They're durable, but surviving a direct hit from a Ballista would be crazy (remember, those things are used as siege weaponry).

[tyber13]

It said that the basitins are stubborn and persistent, not invincible supermen. The reason keith got up was cuz it was suppose to poison him to death, meaning the arrow wasnt intended to be the actual one to kill him. Besides, it all depends on where the projectile hits. If i shot you and completely missed all your vitals, the most i would be doing is causing you pain and make you bleed. If i hit your vitals, your likely dead.

Also, keith did not immediatly get up after being hit, he lay on the ground for a while, then got up. And i dont exactly recall the basitins all being as tall and strong as the king.

[Jetman]

I suppose human and Basitin armies are relatively similar, so it is really the Keidran who are the odd one out. Their lack of civilization, or their lack of access to civilized products is almost certainly an impediment. While they have some biological advantages (like fangs and claws), few of their natural abilities are much good against armor (try biting through a steel helmet), and their lack of "modern" equipment might be an issue. While it is true that they have some metal weapons, most of them appear kinda crude at best, and only a few of them are even seen using any armor at all. Now, their lack of civilization is probably tied into their biology in some way, but exactly how is really just speculation. Maybe they were naturally adapted so well to their environment that they didn't need as many civilized adaptions, which led to their lack of manufactured armor, as well as a probable lack of the infrastructure needed to make it (mines, smelters, blacksmiths). This is not to say that they have NO cities, mines, or smiths, but far, far fewer and cruder ones than the humans, probably.