Biology and Military

[TheBigWhale]

First things first; discipline a skilled soldier does not make.

This is the biggest mistake that people make when referring to military strategy and it is antiquated at best and flat out false at its worst. Now keeping up formations is certainly important in traditional warfare and for a long-standing force it is certainly a good trait to have, in moderation. However a highly disciplined army not only loses it soul but irrevocably damages its recruits minds destroying its chances of integrating them back into normal society (unless your whole society is as brainwashed as your soldiers, like the Basitins) and therefore killing its economic prospects for the future if a large enough portion of the population is rendered useless in their civilian lives.

And the biggest weakness of high levels of discipline and egoistic disassociation is the fact that once [censored] hits the fan and your CO gets taken out, what do you do? The entirety of the Basitin race pretty much erupted into a riot when they were no longer bound by the king's orders. Now tell me what happens when a group of Basitins are on the battlefield and their CO gets an arrow through his face or a blasted by a spell of some sort. They no longer have the mental high from following orders and most importantly they were never taught to think for themselves and so without the order to stay in formation all hell breaks loose.

On a smaller scale the same thing happens today in warfare and the US's forces were especially vulnerable to this in 'Nam. Now things are changing though and larger world powers are (hopefully) turning away from large amounts of foot soldiers and instead are focusing their energy on special operations and creating smaller groups of highly skilled individuals.

Hell before Spec Ops even got popular we have the grand daddy of all badasses, Simo Hayha. A sniper who worked to delay Russia's occupation of Finland he had just barely gotten through basic training and always worked alone. The man was able to successfully reroute artillery (towards him and away from the rest of the Finnish forces) and Russian forces whilst sowing the seeds of chaos. It's no surprise a man with over 500 recorded kills with a sniper rifle alone and not a scratch on him (until his last day in the service) earned the nickname of The White Death. That is the kind of soldier that armies need to start producing, one of them stalled a military giant from occupying a small nation, a group of them could do so much more.

And in fiction this is amplified, we see consistently that individuals who have stepped even shortly beyond the normal boundaries of talent have the ability to raze cities.

I believe Full Metal Alchemist might be a good model, not because the technology and magic are similar but rather what the individuals have been shown to be capable of is on a similar level. Now your average state alchemist is essentially a basic magician as far as the 2Kinds world is concerned, able to down a few mooks with ease and give a far tougher fighter a hard time. The small amount of state alchemists who were given red stones (off the top of my head I'm counting five or so) during the Ishbal campaign however were able to secure a victory over an entire nation. I don't think the Grand Masters are quite there yet but we've seen some pretty phenomenal feats of magic in universe so far and though "Trace is special" a lot of what he has been able to do so far hasn't really been tapping into the vast stores of knowledge and experience that the Templars have. If anything he's probably on par with a moderately skilled magician at best if we discount his affinity for black mana. Top officials in the Templar order most certainly have far more catastrophic powers on hand.

But as for the human forces on their own they are likely slightly inferior to the Basitin forces in direct combat but there are things we must consider beyond that. It seems the Basitin islands are fairly isolated if very self sufficient, this means that in an offensive war against the humans they suffer the disadvantage of a delay between relays of both orders and supplies between their base of operations and their battlefield lest they quickly claim a beachfront or ally with the Keidrans and use their lands to establish temporary bases. Either way a Basitin offensive push would be very taxing on their small population as they reproduce far less often than humans. Then we have to consider the role of magic in combat, covered slightly in regards to its role as a source of much power and strategic worth on the battlefield likenable to artillery support. However there is one thing to keep in mind, mages draw much of their power from the mana towers set by the templars. This allows them to fight at their best on defensive ground as well as to only strength after a successful offensive push but also means that they are also very susceptible to sowing seeds of chaos in a very different way than the Basitin forces. Rather than sowing interpersonal discord in the Basitin ranks when one takes out a high priority human target (one of the templar towers) one effectively softens the blow of one of their key weapons.

Now the Keidran have an interesting role to play in all of this. A sea of trees serves to isolate their foes from them but offers little impediment to their own forces. The general lack of a unifying organization may be a weakness but in the case of a large scale threat the Keidran have been able to band together. This along with their fairly stealthy means of conducting warfare makes them able to reap the full benefits of either sort of disarming of the foe mentioned previously. Not only this but should the Keidrans multiply as they do they will have a large, if somewhat ill-equipped (as they do suffer from the worst technology of the three even if they have some magic), force with which to make large pushes into human territory. Keidrans have the means to build for a massive offensive strike but if they wish to preserve their population they would stick to defensive guerrilla tactics.

I've never played Starcraft but from my understanding a good comparison would be:
Keidran - Zergs
Humans - Protoss
Basitin - Terrans

[tyber13]

Comparing everything to a strategy game such as Starcraft isnt that much of a good idea...

[TheBigWhale]

That wasn't the point of my post though, it was merely an afterthought. (A bit of a "TL:DR" if you will.)

[Jetman]

I hadn't considered the trees very much. The keidran, or at least some species of them, would be naturally adapted for climbing trees using just their claws alone. That's a biological trait influencing their military, at least to some extent.

[tyber13]

Yea, but i dont think forest fires are a problem when it comes to magic.

[tony1695]

Maybe something that has been forgotten.
Couldn't the humans send the Keidran slaves as an expendable front line? I'm pretty sure free Keidran would be pretty freaked to find their enemies are not humans, but Keidran being forced to fight against their will.

[tyber13]

Maybe something that has been forgotten.
Couldn't the humans send the Keidran slaves as an expendable front line? I'm pretty sure free Keidran would be pretty freaked to find their enemies are not humans, but Keidran being forced to fight against their will.

i hadnt thought about that.

Yea, that is a possibility. After all, they can brainwash keidran into love being slaves, so what stops them from making them love being soldiers? It could definitly cause some trouble for the keidran.

[Jetman]

If I'm not mistaken, the control is less-than absolute. A truly abhorrent order might not work.

[Talonmaster Zso]

As a note, you don't need to brainwash someone to get them to fight for you. Historically, there's examples of populations being forced to fight for someone they would normally oppose because otherwise they'll die (and, usually given the choice between "might die" and "will die", "Might die" is the one that will be picked). I can't recall any historical examples off the top of my head, but another example is being garbed in armor and clothing that disguises just who's at the front. In this scenario, the Kiedran won't know who they're killing until they've been locked in melee, and by this point it's already a lost-cause to withdraw as either they must disengage (which puts their offensive push to a halt), attempt to let the slaves / prisoners through (which disorganizes the battle-line and leaves them vulnerable to a counter-active push), or continue slaughtering the prisoners (which, even in the case of a victory, would be very traumatic to those who were forced to slay their own kinsmen, as well as tiring the Kiedran soldiers before they can get to the juicy good Human center).

This, however, isn't really a biologically limited aspect of warfare / the military. Well, unless you're trying to play a "Humans are Dicks" card that only they'd do it due to some biological nature of them, but that's a bit stretching the TK world (insofar as we've seen every faction has quite a lot of potential to be dicks).

[primalcaller ergos]

I hadn't considered the trees very much. The keidran, or at least some species of them, would be naturally adapted for climbing trees using just their claws alone. That's a biological trait influencing their military, at least to some extent.

actually, i've noticed this too, althought they dont have huge archer towers made of stone appearently sticking several archer units into trees for camophlage+ranged ambush tactics
actually seem to work quite well for keidran (i think nat might have been in a bush when she shot keith, but that's beside the point)
not only because they can climb well but have both a longer range and can hear any opposing armies through the dense shrubbery before they arrive, even to the point of being able
to accurately hit a target from a moderate range "blindly" purely on other senses like hearing and smell detection because those senses are just that sharp for them is more of an advantage
than we as of yet completely understand.

again, i do actually see a comparable factor with warcraft style night elves simply due to the fact that they also have few smiths and no mines to speak of
(they live on a giant tree, not much metal up there. well that and most metal they have is salvaged, thus they usually use wooden bows, bone spears and leather armor)
and they are still able to fend off masses of finely armored orcish berserkers tough enough to just shrug off an axe in the arm (even with out armor on thier arm)

and legions of orcish shamans (who usually have much more rawly powerfull magics than mages of the same expirence, simply because comuning with elemental spirits is much harder than
simply manipulating raw energy) and even thier goblin allies who are wearing huge metal steam powered battle suits aimed at useing huge buzzsaws to cut down the tree barriers
simply by using ambush tactics like having the enemy casters shot down mid incantation by hidden archers (you cannot kill what you cannot find), collapsing enemy mineshafts,
stealthily destroying the portals they use to summon in reinforcements and having thier druids use nature magic to get nearby roots to clog up and rip apart enemy constucts.

now of course here's an idea: maybe not needing to build mines smiths and farms is an advantage to the keidran simply because then they wont be dependent on them
and end up devastated whenthe enemy ravages and /or captures them. after all many a siege has been successfull simply due to "starving them out of thier forts"
via captureing and occupying of the enemy's farm land untill thier reserves run bone dry. seeing as how the keidran can just live off of "undeveloped/unaltered land" via hunting+gathering
of what is in thier immediate surroundings and are thus immune to supply route blockages, while the humans have to rely on large scale agriculture facilities and thus are not,

you begin to see the advantage of how the keidran could guilera raid and crush any forward base's manufactioring sites and cut off any and all routes bringing in supplies,
thus smothering/choking out and surrounding any forward base to prevent escape/retreat, while not needing to worry about the humans doing the same.
this might even be why there is a stalemated border at all, the humans can't advance without getting pwned from the shadows, and the keidran can't push the border
without getting stomped out by the human's defenses like armed+armored militias and mage towers.

to sum things up, each racial faction has it's advantages and know to use them, thus they have battle styles unique to them.
(humans:weapon production,basitin:endurace+direct tactics,keidran:guilera effective enough to stop entire armies) -ergos, adding his ideas...-

[tyber13]

guerilla warfare does not win massive wars. it is only good for small scale battles.

lets see them ambush a marching army, fully armed.

[aitaituo]

As a note, you don't need to brainwash someone to get them to fight for you. Historically, there's examples of populations being forced to fight for someone they would normally oppose because otherwise they'll die (and, usually given the choice between "might die" and "will die", "Might die" is the one that will be picked). I can't recall any historical examples off the top of my head,

The Mongols under Genghis Khan used this to great effect in many, many battles, going so far as to attack poorly defended minor cities and villages strictly to acquire slaves to form the vanguard for real targets. Surely the Keidran and Basitin could employ the same tactic, although they probably don't have nearly as many (if any?) human slaves on hand as the humans already have Keidran slaves.

[Talonmaster Zso]

actually, i've noticed this too, althought they dont have huge archer towers made of stone appearently sticking several archer units into trees for camophlage+ranged ambush tactics
actually seem to work quite well for keidran (i think nat might have been in a bush when she shot keith, but that's beside the point)

Well, stone towers made for archers to fire from have the problem that they're a static defensive position, and a readily observable one to boot. Kiedran on the move would eventually have to fall back beyond the tower, and by that point they just gave any humans / basitans occupying the territory a fortification the Kiedran need to topple.

not only because they can climb well but have both a longer range and can hear any opposing armies through the dense shrubbery before they arrive,

This might only occur during a forced Night March, really. At least unless they have Book-Legolas Ears and can hear armies several leagues away putting their head to Earth.

even to the point of being able
to accurately hit a target from a moderate range "blindly" purely on other senses like hearing and smell detection because those senses are just that sharp for them is more of an advantage
than we as of yet completely understand.

I'm not quite sure this would work. Hearing could give you an approximate direction, but smell's highly reliant on wind (Compound bows can reach 30m-90m readily, so standing upwind wouldn't really give them much a shot) and neither really account for obstacles in the way.

Which reminds me that, in this case, land-battles might be someone influenced by the wind's directions. If there's "weather-mages" for the Humans, making sure to travel downwind could be beneficial when doing night marches, forced marches, sending in small parties / scouting bands, etcetera.

now of course here's an idea: maybe not needing to build mines smiths and farms is an advantage to the keidran simply because then they wont be dependent on them

The problem here is, without farms and smiths you're still heavily limited. No farms limit you to "settlements" that range only in the hundreds for total population each, and no mines give you a major lack in equipment. Not having them's good insofar as you not being able to lose them, but it's also bad insofar as you limiting yourself heavily (Unlike what many games and movies may like to portray, living in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle that occasionally raids is not a sustainable lifestyle: Even Vikings [an example] had their own metal-workers and farms, farming being one of the main things a Viking was expected to do).

and end up devastated whenthe enemy ravages and /or captures them. after all many a siege has been successfull simply due to "starving them out of thier forts"

Actually, I think that's the most effective way to enforce a siege. Actually taking a Castle which is fully stocked and defended is a highly costly endeavor when you don't have stuff like Cannons, which could probably depopulate an entire area of Kiedran before they made any leeway on breaking in. The issue is that, well, the Kiedran don't make the best strangling force either - if they're strong enough to enforce a blockade, they're gathering well enough that someone can't do a basic break-through. If no-one can make a break-through, you've probably advanced beyond "Guerilla" to "Conventional Warfare", and that's where Kiedran do worse.

Not to say they can't take castles, obviously (I think it's a plot point that they've taken at least one, but can't recall). It's just that it's difficult for them, especially without their own supply lines to stock them with new gear or food (Unless they raid it).

while the humans have to rely on large scale agriculture facilities and thus are not,

Technically, the best thing the humans could do is withdraw all their border territories, and fortify everything along the new edge. If the Kiedran are predominantly subsisting themselves on raid supplies, this would starve them out (literally) within a few generations, if that.

[avwolf]

now of course here's an idea: maybe not needing to build mines smiths and farms is an advantage to the keidran simply because then they wont be dependent on them

The problem here is, without farms and smiths you're still heavily limited. No farms limit you to "settlements" that range only in the hundreds for total population each, and no mines give you a major lack in equipment. Not having them's good insofar as you not being able to lose them, but it's also bad insofar as you limiting yourself heavily (Unlike what many games and movies may like to portray, living in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle that occasionally raids is not a sustainable lifestyle: Even Vikings [an example] had their own metal-workers and farms, farming being one of the main things a Viking was expected to do).

I have to agree with Zso. Agriculture and/or animal husbandry (which we can assume that the Keidran do have, since they have cities of fairly large population) is a massive advantage for war, not a disadvantage. It permits you to have supply lines without requiring a massive stockpile of difficult to gather food. Foraging is only viable in an area that the enemy has exploited for food production; otherwise you won't be able to provide for your army and fight battles. Foraging is a terrible, terrible way to try to feed a large population, especially one that has better things to do than gather resources to eat. An army is definitely a pretty good sided population with something better to do than look for food. Since most Keidran are carnivorous, if they aren't bringing their own meat, they're going to need massive herds of wildlife (which we haven't seen) in order to feed their army. Hunting time is time and energy not spent fighting the war. It's a very poor use of resources. I don't think that they're going to be raiding enough farms and taking enough cattle to feed their forces. At that point, farms didn't have a lot of farm animals, not compared to the concentrated animal feeding facilities of today. While a Keidran "farm" might bear more resemblance to a feedlot, since they need more meat, a Human farm won't have more than a handful of animals. It'd be tough to feed an army on those sorts of rations.

[Talaisan]

now of course here's an idea: maybe not needing to build mines smiths and farms is an advantage to the keidran simply because then they wont be dependent on them

The problem here is, without farms and smiths you're still heavily limited. No farms limit you to "settlements" that range only in the hundreds for total population each, and no mines give you a major lack in equipment. Not having them's good insofar as you not being able to lose them, but it's also bad insofar as you limiting yourself heavily (Unlike what many games and movies may like to portray, living in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle that occasionally raids is not a sustainable lifestyle: Even Vikings [an example] had their own metal-workers and farms, farming being one of the main things a Viking was expected to do).

I have to agree with Zso. Agriculture and/or animal husbandry (which we can assume that the Keidran do have, since they have cities of fairly large population) is a massive advantage for war, not a disadvantage. It permits you to have supply lines without requiring a massive stockpile of difficult to gather food. Foraging is only viable in an area that the enemy has exploited for food production; otherwise you won't be able to provide for your army and fight battles. Foraging is a terrible, terrible way to try to feed a large population, especially one that has better things to do than gather resources to eat. An army is definitely a pretty good sided population with something better to do than look for food. Since most Keidran are carnivorous, if they aren't bringing their own meat, they're going to need massive herds of wildlife (which we haven't seen) in order to feed their army. Hunting time is time and energy not spent fighting the war. It's a very poor use of resources. I don't think that they're going to be raiding enough farms and taking enough cattle to feed their forces. At that point, farms didn't have a lot of farm animals, not compared to the concentrated animal feeding facilities of today. While a Keidran "farm" might bear more resemblance to a feedlot, since they need more meat, a Human farm won't have more than a handful of animals. It'd be tough to feed an army on those sorts of rations.

This. Even factoring in the relative size and concentration of farms being lower and higher respectively, than modern examples, the density of animals to a given area is just not sufficient to feed an army of Top Order Predators. How I'd do it? The Keidran supply line is probably more of a supply herd. Cattle can be used to both carry materiel (remember kids, materiel with an E is military speak for material with an A!) and then be eaten. There's a major limiting factor, though. Once you run out, you've got jack nothing to get home on, aside from what you can raid. I expect the Keidran aren't going to be doing in Napoleonic conquest marches, more likely they'd work on pushing the borders back one acre at a time.