Magic and Technology

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PhycoKrusk
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Re: Magic and Technology

#31 Post by PhycoKrusk »

avwolf wrote:Considering that Keith was able to purchase a bag of mana crystals, they must not be a strongly regulated substance. Considering that they occur naturally, I don't think the Templar can exert that much control over the use and sale of mana crystals.
The question then becomes where do they occur naturally? That question brings me to my next point:
avwolf wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Trace instituted the production of currency (probably under Euchre's direction). Economic dominance would play to their advantage.
Yes, it would. As economic theory doesn't appear to be very strongly developed, the common man, with his small stake to harvest mana crystals, could be easily bought off with Templar gold (which is practically guaranteed to hold its value) if they don't know well enough to realize that, at some point, those crystals will be worth a lot more (of course, the Templar could always claim he was carried off by the Keidran....). Thus, the Templar come to control the production of mana crystals, and put themselves in a position to regulate their trade.
avwolf wrote:They've already established themselves as the only mages to be taken seriously -- they're the ones who are hired when pretty much any magical activity needs done, from the looks of things. Since the Towers stand as much as a reminder of the Templar's power as they do actually protect Humans from Keidran, coinage that too reminds the populace of the strength and prestige of the Templar.
Coming back to my previous point that replacing the King with the Grand Templar wouldn't upset the status quo much. In fact, given the strength and prestige of the Templar, such a change might even be welcomed by the general population.
Sebbie wrote:By the way, where do non-Templars (Eric, for example) learn how to use magic?
Eric was born to a wealthy family, and while I don't recall seeing him use magic at any point, any wealthy family could afford a private tutor. By increasing the prestige of the order, however, the Templar marginalize the appeal of a private tutor when training as a Templar brings greater prestige, further cementing their hold on magic and, as magic is clearly a commodity here, the economy as well.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#32 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote:
Sebbie wrote:By the way, where do non-Templars (Eric, for example) learn how to use magic?
Eric was born to a wealthy family, and while I don't recall seeing him use magic at any point, any wealthy family could afford a private tutor. By increasing the prestige of the order, however, the Templar marginalize the appeal of a private tutor when training as a Templar brings greater prestige, further cementing their hold on magic and, as magic is clearly a commodity here, the economy as well.
My question was mainly whether private tutors who aren't linked to the Templar exist. However, I agree with your point. By giving an illusion of great prestige, strong leadership, and protection from "evil Keidran," the Templar should be able to easily sway the general (human) population any way they choose, eventually becoming something of a military dictatorship.

By the way, I think Eric uses magic here, although I suppose the device might work even without its user knowing magic.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#33 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:My question was mainly whether private tutors who aren't linked to the Templar exist.
One would assume so. Unless there were really strong incentives to join the Templar, not all of them would. And even then, there's the issue of access. It's likely that some simply couldn't get into the academy for whatever reason, which would force them to use private tutors or to "wing it."
Sebbie wrote:By the way, I think Eric uses magic here, although I suppose the device might work even without its user knowing magic.
I see where you got the notion that Eric used magic, and honestly, I'm not sure. It's extremely ambiguous what's going on there. For all we know, that little glowing orb is the real Eric Vaughan. And maybe it is.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#34 Post by avwolf »

I don't think that the Templar are the only guild of mages in the world. They're just the biggest and most prestigious. And we all know what wizards are like -- they're all in it for the glory (and of course, the ladies, as we know that "sorcerers get all the girls," to quote the adventure game title). On top of that, the Templar recruit fairly aggressively, looking for children with magical potential to bring into their organization. I don't have a lot to actually base the belief in other mage guilds on, but it seems likely to me that there are smaller batches of hedge-wizards and cabals of mages around. (kryss, you've also forwarded the hypothesis of mage guilds in competition with the Templar, do you have more distinct evidence, or is it something that simply seems reasonable to you as well?)
PhycoKrusk wrote:The question then becomes where do they occur naturally? That question brings me to my next point:
In the words of one (now ex-)Master Templar, wherever mana is gathered in large enough quantities. Subtleflowers appear to do it naturally. There's not been much indication as to where Keidran collect mana crystals, but since they can't draw mana from the earth, they have to find them somewhere.

As an additional point, the crystal merchant didn't look Templar, and his mere presence implies very strongly that there are a lot of people who can use magic but are not trained Templar. Otherwise, who would he sell crystals to? The Templar have no need of them, between their towers and their trained ability to draw mana directly from their environment. It also suggests that the average person might be able to learn magic without difficulty, but tapping the mana in the environment, much like tapping the towers, is something that a person must be trained in order to do.

The Templar may be seeking dominance over the entire world, but I suggest that they have no monopoly on anything. They're the recognized name when it comes to magic and hunting Keidran, but I doubt they are the only ones doing either or both.

-- You know --
As we've seen in the Templar Towers, the mana sink, and Eric's "lamp," magic is sometimes applied in a manner easily approximating technology. How long before some enterprising tinker actually builds a magical gun? Load it with a mana crystal, pull the trigger and blast your opponent with pure force. More expensive than a crossbow, but far more destructive and just as easy to use. The only difficulty is in coming up with a way to impose a will on the shape of magic without actually relying on a user's will -- to build a barrel that can draw the mana from a stone, store it, and focus the mana into a form.

Eric's lamp suggests that most of that is possible, or at least can be worked around. Even if the device itself is little but a focus to ensure the correct application of the user's will, it's implied to be an item that permits the very specific application of a magical effect by someone with questionable prowess in the Art.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#35 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote:
Sebbie wrote:My question was mainly whether private tutors who aren't linked to the Templar exist.
One would assume so. Unless there were really strong incentives to join the Templar, not all of them would. And even then, there's the issue of access. It's likely that some simply couldn't get into the academy for whatever reason, which would force them to use private tutors or to "wing it."
I figured something along those lines, but I was wondering if there's ever been evidence of such.
PhycoKrusk wrote:
Sebbie wrote:By the way, I think Eric uses magic here, although I suppose the device might work even without its user knowing magic.
I see where you got the notion that Eric used magic, and honestly, I'm not sure. It's extremely ambiguous what's going on there. For all we know, that little glowing orb is the real Eric Vaughan. And maybe it is.

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So from what I gather from the various threads, in the next updates Laura is going to reveal she's a powerful mage and is going to blow up Alabaster with a thought, Alaric is going to come swooping in riding Nora, and Eric's going to reveal his true self to be a glowing orb. IT WILL BE EPIC.

Anyway, back to topic. Now, all this talk about the Templar taking over the world or whatnot assumes that they'll maintain and increase the power they have now; what if instead the events of the story lead the Templar being overthrown? I mean, it's already started; Trace lost his memories, and now the Master Architect is dead, so things aren't looking too great for the Templar right now. What if the world comes into balance; will the development of technology, both magical and not, continue? Will the three races develop a stable global economy? More importantly, will the technological developments of the races follow similar paths through exchange of ideas and technology in a new era of peace, or will each develop in their own direction: humans and Keidran developing a technology based on magic, Basitins instead developing non-magical technology similar to that in our world?

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST (why do I keep getting ninjad!?):
avwolf wrote:It also suggests that the average person might be able to learn magic without difficulty, but tapping the mana in the environment, much like tapping the towers, is something that a person must be trained in order to do.
That's starting to seem like the most reasonable explanation, I think.
avwolf wrote: The Templar may be seeking dominance over the entire world, but I suggest that they have no monopoly on anything. They're the recognized name when it comes to magic and hunting Keidran, but I doubt they are the only ones doing either or both.
Well, right now they're not, but I think the idea was that if they keep doing what they're doing, it won't be long before they monopolize magic and the the global economy.
avwolf wrote: As we've seen in the Templar Towers, the mana sink, and Eric's "lamp," magic is sometimes applied in a manner easily approximating technology. How long before some enterprising tinker actually builds a magical gun? Load it with a mana crystal, pull the trigger and blast your opponent with pure force. More expensive than a crossbow, but far more destructive and just as easy to use. The only difficulty is in coming up with a way to impose a will on the shape of magic without actually relying on a user's will -- to build a barrel that can draw the mana from a stone, store it, and focus the mana into a form.

Eric's lamp suggests that most of that is possible, or at least can be worked around. Even if the device itself is little but a focus to ensure the correct application of the user's will, it's implied to be an item that permits the very specific application of a magical effect by someone with questionable prowess in the Art.
It certainly sounds like what you're saying is possible; I mean, look at who the Master Architect brought with him to run the Tower. He's (well, he was) the only full-fledged Templar there; all the others were students of his, who undoubtedly were far from mastering the Art, and therefore that seems to imply that the brunt of the work of moving and storing mana was done by the technology in the Tower itself. So it seems that magic can be at least directed with nothing more than the right technology.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#36 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:So from what I gather from the various threads, in the next updates Laura is going to reveal she's a powerful mage and is going to blow up Alabaster with a thought, Alaric is going to come swooping in riding Nora, and Eric's going to reveal his true self to be a glowing orb. IT WILL BE EPIC.
I think we may have just discovered another Most Excellent(TM) heavy metal album cover.
Sebbie wrote:What if the world comes into balance; will the development of technology, both magical and not, continue? Will the three races develop a stable global economy? More importantly, will the technological developments of the races follow similar paths through exchange of ideas and technology in a new era of peace, or will each develop in their own direction: humans and Keidran developing a technology based on magic, Basitins instead developing non-magical technology similar to that in our world?
My brain has been struck by lightning, and I think you've just hit upon the crux of one of our questions.

If any race would develop science-based tech (in the sense we think of it), it would be the Basitins, since they can't use magic. But why haven't they? Isolation and love of war. Isolation means they have no need to develop guns and electric generators. Love of war means they don't want to, because then one side (east or west) might accidentally win.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#37 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote:
Sebbie wrote:What if the world comes into balance; will the development of technology, both magical and not, continue? Will the three races develop a stable global economy? More importantly, will the technological developments of the races follow similar paths through exchange of ideas and technology in a new era of peace, or will each develop in their own direction: humans and Keidran developing a technology based on magic, Basitins instead developing non-magical technology similar to that in our world?
My brain has been struck by lightning, and I think you've just hit upon the crux of one of our questions.

If any race would develop science-based tech (in the sense we think of it), it would be the Basitins, since they can't use magic. But why haven't they? Isolation and love of war. Isolation means they have no need to develop guns and electric generators. Love of war means they don't want to, because then one side (east or west) might accidentally win.
To be sure, the Basitins have developed non-magical technology superior to that of the humans; that, and their love and skill of war, is the reason the Templar were so wary to attack them directly. Now, as for whether their technology is advancing or not, I don't know, but I would imagine it should be. I don't know what effect their isolation has; just because they're disconnected from he mainland doesn't mean electricity wouldn't be useful, for example. But as for more advanced weaponry, I think their love of war is exactly what would promote its development. Because the Eastern and Western Basitins are in a constant state of war, both sides will do their best to one-up the other side's military technology. Once one side gets the upper hand, instead of completely obliterating the other side, it would back off and give the other side time to advance their technology as well. Thus I think that the constant war is actually conducive to the development of military technology (as long as one side doesn't completely destroy the other, which I think Tom made clear is not their intent).

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Re: Magic and Technology

#38 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:To be sure, the Basitins have developed non-magical technology superior to that of the humans; that, and their love and skill of war, is the reason the Templar were so wary to attack them directly. Now, as for whether their technology is advancing or not, I don't know, but I would imagine it should be. I don't know what effect their isolation has; just because they're disconnected from he mainland doesn't mean electricity wouldn't be useful, for example. But as for more advanced weaponry, I think their love of war is exactly what would promote its development. Because the Eastern and Western Basitins are in a constant state of war, both sides will do their best to one-up the other side's military technology. Once one side gets the upper hand, instead of completely obliterating the other side, it would back off and give the other side time to advance their technology as well. Thus I think that the constant war is actually conducive to the development of military technology (as long as one side doesn't completely destroy the other, which I think Tom made clear is not their intent).
I would argue, instead, that this is the very reason their technology is not advancing. The only reason to improve military technology is to make your forces more capable of obliterating the enemy's. If your goal isn't to obliterate the enemy, why would you develop devices to do exactly that. Furthermore, given the heavy armor we see Basitins wearing, war between the two probably still frequently hinges on large numbers of one-on-one confrontations, or phalanx-style combat. Because there is no need to make these methods more capable of destroying the other side (because they are basically just playing one long, never-ending war game), why would they need to develop new technologies?
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Re: Magic and Technology

#39 Post by avwolf »

For a large span of time in Europe, the thing that spurred technological innovation was the question "how do we kill those guys over there better than they kill us?" Though Phyco's question is a good one: do the wargames actually inhibit the development of advancing weapons because they don't really want to kill everyone on the other side? That said, there's been some implication that the Basitin wargames are also meant to keep them strong as a race, to oppose the other races. So they can't permit themselves to fall too far behind. They may well share technological advancements with each other, to keep their game balanced. Doesn't that suggest ominous things about the Templar's presence? ;)

Interestingly enough, during most of Asia's scientific golden age, they were also strongly isolationist. That suggests that a technological powerhouse need not necessarily depend on global communication or trade.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#40 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote: I would argue, instead, that this is the very reason their technology is not advancing. The only reason to improve military technology is to make your forces more capable of obliterating the enemy's. If your goal isn't to obliterate the enemy, why would you develop devices to do exactly that. Furthermore, given the heavy armor we see Basitins wearing, war between the two probably still frequently hinges on large numbers of one-on-one confrontations, or phalanx-style combat. Because there is no need to make these methods more capable of destroying the other side (because they are basically just playing one long, never-ending war game), why would they need to develop new technologies?
Well, the Basitins aren't trying to obliterate each other, but they're not trying to keep a stalemate going either. Both sides are fighting to win; they just stop when it's clear who has the upper hand. To that end, the better technology one side has, the more often they're the winner, and the more Basitin honor points or whatever they have. Just like in any other game, you may not be trying to actually kill your opponent, but you still do what you can to win. As for the hand-on-hand combat, that's certainly an important part of their culture, and I don't think they'd give it up easily, but that doesn't mean they can't develop other weapons. If they have archers for long-range fighting, why not develop other long-range weapons as well?

EDIT: Ninjad by avwolf a THIRD time! WHAT IS THIS!?
avwolf wrote:That said, there's been some implication that the Basitin wargames are also meant to keep them strong as a race, to oppose the other races. So they can't permit themselves to fall too far behind. They may well share technological advancements with each other, to keep their game balanced.
Exactly.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#41 Post by coal »

Also, the point of war isn't to kill all of the other guys, it's to win. That is what makes other tactics viable like terrorism, propaganda tactics that help further their sides cause without killing people. Though death is apart of the game it isn't the objective it self. The exclusion to this is of course things like genocide and the like. Things like video games about wars or war games themselves may take away from that understanding though. Well the point is that Weapons aren't the only tools in a war.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#42 Post by WindDragon »

Agreed, although on the actual battlefield, weapons make the war. But in the story, we really haven't seen any giant war zones...only small skirmishes. Weapons aren't the only option that can be used to win wars, although in wargames, they pretty much ARE the only option. However, this is a discussion on technology so we're either down to weapons, or means of intimidation. What I mean by the second one is to frighten/unnerve the other civilization enough so that they give up. One way to do this is to build massive weapons or technologically advanced tools that are pretty much for show.

Pretty much like what nuclear weapons are to countries now. No one is going to risk launching a missile at another country because a full scale retaliation will result in the destruction and irradiation of not only half the globe, but a nuclear winter for whatever is left. Therefore the only reason countries continue to build nuclear missiles is so that they can't be intimidated by them. Imagine you're Iran or North Korea from a few years ago. Here we are without nuclear weapons and pretty much everyone is against us. USA has a whole load of nuclear weapons and so does some of our allies. In this perspective, we'd be sitting ducks if they all decided to press the launch button...

This is partly the reason why I feel the Templars built these humongous, ominous looking towers in the first place. 25% because they had an actual purpose and 75% because it would instill fear (or at least awe).
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Re: Magic and Technology

#43 Post by Sebbie »

WindDragon wrote:Agreed, although on the actual battlefield, weapons make the war. But in the story, we really haven't seen any giant war zones...only small skirmishes. Weapons aren't the only option that can be used to win wars, although in wargames, they pretty much ARE the only option. However, this is a discussion on technology so we're either down to weapons, or means of intimidation. What I mean by the second one is to frighten/unnerve the other civilization enough so that they give up. One way to do this is to build massive weapons or technologically advanced tools that are pretty much for show.
We got into the discussion of weapons by considering how their ongoing war might influence the Basitin's technological development; to that end, I don't think the Basitins really care about intimidating anyone, they just want to play their war games as well as they can, and that, I think, is conducive to the development of more advanced technologies.

WindDragon wrote:This is partly the reason why I feel the Templars built these humongous, ominous looking towers in the first place. 25% because they had an actual purpose and 75% because it would instill fear (or at least awe).
Yeah, I think the Towers now stand mainly as symbols of the Templar's might and dominance. It's possible that they're also storing energy for when (if?) the Templar launch a full-out offensive attack on the other races, but in the long run the main effect of the Towers is to remind everyone who's in charge.

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Re: Magic and Technology

#44 Post by PhycoKrusk »

Sebbie wrote:Yeah, I think the Towers now stand mainly as symbols of the Templar's might and dominance. It's possible that they're also storing energy for when (if?) the Templar launch a full-out offensive attack on the other races, but in the long run the main effect of the Towers is to remind everyone who's in charge.
The only "if" will be if someone takes initiative and prevents that attack from taking place. From what we've seen, the Templar are clearly "preparing the ground" for an offensive (a move that, I feel, is not going to be a very smart one, but that's a different discussion).
WindDragon wrote:Pretty much like what nuclear weapons are to countries now. No one is going to risk launching a missile at another country because a full scale retaliation will result in the destruction and irradiation of not only half the globe, but a nuclear winter for whatever is left.
That's only partially accurate, since the driving force behind this strategy is the concept of Mutual Assured Destruction. Against the Basitins, the tower can be clearly shown to be a WMD, if not in the conventional sense. However, we have only seen one "weapon" that would be capable of MAD if two sides in a conflict had it, and that is Trace's black mana dragon.
Sebbie wrote:We got into the discussion of weapons by considering how their ongoing war might influence the Basitin's technological development; to that end, I don't think the Basitins really care about intimidating anyone, they just want to play their war games as well as they can, and that, I think, is conducive to the development of more advanced technologies.
We have to remember that, regardless of what technological developments occur wherever, any and all war would eventually boil down to a protracted ground war. The Basitins aren't concerned because, regardless of how well organized the Templar ever become as a fighting force, they appear to have no Navy, which is essential to assaulting any island nation (regardless of what anyone might tell you, you cannot win a war against an island with an air force alone). This status quo would change considerably if a Navy entered the equation. Basitins probably would become concerned about posturing and shows of force if an armed invasion of their home was a realistic possibility.
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Re: Magic and Technology

#45 Post by Sebbie »

PhycoKrusk wrote:
Sebbie wrote:We got into the discussion of weapons by considering how their ongoing war might influence the Basitin's technological development; to that end, I don't think the Basitins really care about intimidating anyone, they just want to play their war games as well as they can, and that, I think, is conducive to the development of more advanced technologies.
We have to remember that, regardless of what technological developments occur wherever, any and all war would eventually boil down to a protracted ground war. The Basitins aren't concerned because, regardless of how well organized the Templar ever become as a fighting force, they appear to have no Navy, which is essential to assaulting any island nation (regardless of what anyone might tell you, you cannot win a war against an island with an air force alone). This status quo would change considerably if a Navy entered the equation. Basitins probably would become concerned about posturing and shows of force if an armed invasion of their home was a realistic possibility.
I think the main reason the Basitins aren't worried about external attacks is because the Templar turned into a military power only after Trace took control of them, which was a relatively recent event. I don't think the existence or non-existence of a navy is relevant in this situation; all you need is for one Templar to set a waypoint on the island, and then you can teleport as many more as you need. If the Templar had a longer history of warmongering, I think that would, as you say, made the Basitins "concerned about posturing and shows of force."

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