Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

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AmigaDragon
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#46 Post by AmigaDragon »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:05 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:15 am If I remember correctly didn't Mike or evals once sai that they were not being controlled because the collars ran out of magic and since Eric was frolicking around the Basitins isle he forgot to re-enchant them?
In short, no, not really. The magic on the island was kinda "broken" after the incident, so I think we can say with relative certainty that the Great Tower Explosion had some kind of magic-nullifying effect, essentially erasing the spell altogether.
According to Nora it was "drained and consumed" by the explosion. I think I remember someone also saying scrambled.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#47 Post by SmileWolf »

I don't care about the mechanics of that bracelet. All I know is if she doesn't kiss Zen, I just might volunteer. :mrgreen:

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#48 Post by Eclipse »

Bellhead wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 pm I still don't think that's the case. If it were powered by a limited source, it would have a limited usage duration.
:? I said it probably wasn't powered by a limited source.
Bellhead wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 pm I still think that the collars are programmed by the user, or rather, master, and that magic sequence (for lack of a better term) is stored in the runes indefinitely, until called upon to be used. Case in point: ... control spells disabled." He wouldn't say "disabled" unless it was impossible that they could have simply 'run out'.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. He could've disabled the absorption process which would cease the collar's control features.
Bellhead wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 pm Now, I have thought about how their power would be sustained over an indefinite period, and I think I figured something out. Exhibit A: "Once I cast the spell, it'll draw its energy from you, and won't stop until you will for it to." - Natani, referring to the "Heart's Desire" spell. Natani is a self-proclaimed novice at spell creation, and admits himself that "guesswork magic is very inefficient". Now let's look at the Heart's Desire spell: something Natani developed, capable of running off the target's energy, instead of the caster. Would somebody without any training in magic creation be able to create something so complex, if it wasn't already something that people knew could be done? Makes more sense to me, that the idea of a self-sustaining spell powered by the target's energy would have to be a well-known concept, at least in some circles. Now, if that sort of sequence were programmed into the collars, for instance, but on a much smaller scale and in a different direction, could it not simply subdue somebody, without draining more energy than their body could naturally supply?

Food for thought.
I don't think it works that way. I assume conservation of matter still applies to mana, so you would need to continuously supply the collar with mana as it's continuously burning mana to keep it powered. The target of the spell wouldn't affect that.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#49 Post by Warrl »

According to Nora, magic was "disrupted throughout the island" by the destruction of the tower. And she would know, as she's dependent on it to simply remain functional. This is an adequate (although not necessarily correct) explanation for why the slave collars stopped functioning.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#50 Post by Bellhead »

Eclipse wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:40 am
Bellhead wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 pm snip
I don't think it works that way. I assume conservation of matter still applies to mana, so you would need to continuously supply the collar with mana as it's continuously burning mana to keep it powered. The target of the spell wouldn't affect that.
Okay then, if conservation of energy applies to mana, how are we assuming it's made in the first place? I'm thinking that mana, as energy, is created like chemical energy in the body as a product of simply being alive.

If that's the case, a collar could be programmed to have its sustained source be the wearer, could it not? I would think that something like one of those collars wouldn't use more than a normal keidran body could create on its own, even if it's a small enough amount that they couldn't use it themselves.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#51 Post by steelabjur »

When he cast the Heart's Desire spell, Natani still required a mana crystal to get the spell going, so there's still an upfront cost. Raine was able to fix her magic suppression shackle once she got Zen's crystals. Since we know Zen was traveling pretty light during that time, and Raine was currently stuck in Keidran form, she must have only used the mana crystals to affect the repair and enchantment (along with her own book smarts about magic). The function of that particular device and its effect on Raine suggests that the user might not be the source of power for enchanted items. Although we've seen a similar effect in the comic, when the Master Architect Randel used the Bastlin Mana Tower to contain Trace (it didn't end well for him or his people but one mentioned that they prepared a "mana sink" on their ship to take Trace back). Eric has/had a simple sphere that createdlight out of mana.

Black magic is always an option for the desperate as well. Apparently Raine thought that even a Keidran could use it without mana crystals. Issac, the only reference we have to a Keidran using "forbidden magic" (almost certainly black magic) seems to do so (and dies from the casting).

Also just realized, Natani wouldn't need to rush to the room Zen's at to magically help; Zen's there. Natani can cast spells through Zen if Nat's in a condition to do so and they're still near a summoning table (to get mana crystals).

Just sort of rambling here, but thought I'd provide some examples of magical items being used and add a few comments to the ongoing discussion.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#52 Post by Eclipse »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:47 am
Eclipse wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:40 am
Bellhead wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 pm snip
I don't think it works that way. I assume conservation of matter still applies to mana, so you would need to continuously supply the collar with mana as it's continuously burning mana to keep it powered. The target of the spell wouldn't affect that.
Okay then, if conservation of energy applies to mana, how are we assuming it's made in the first place? I'm thinking that mana, as energy, is created like chemical energy in the body as a product of simply being alive.

If that's the case, a collar could be programmed to have its sustained source be the wearer, could it not? I would think that something like one of those collars wouldn't use more than a normal keidran body could create on its own, even if it's a small enough amount that they couldn't use it themselves.
I do think it's plausible that other forms of energy could be converted to mana and vice versa. Likely even, considering that the Heart's Desire spell drew from Keith's energy when Basitins cannot utilize mana. However, considering that the Heart's Desire spell could've killed Keith if it was active for too long, it doesn't seem like this energy can naturally be replenished through normal bodily processes such as breathing, eating, or drinking. So if the collars worked similarly, it wouldn't be drawing from a Keidran's natural energy. It would either need mana, which would require constantly resupplying it with crystals, or it would kill them in a matter of hours. That wouldn't be practical for a slave owner to use.

By far the most practical way for the collars to constantly resupply the collar with mana would be to simulate how human mana cores work, that requires the least maintenance out of all of the possible solutions. Using the Keidran's natural magic supply would require a constant supply of crystals. If it drew from their natural body processes you would need to give them extra food and drink. Their owner would want to spend as little time and money keeping them enslaved as possible, the ideal way to do that is if the collars automatically draw the mana from the air or ground like humans.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#53 Post by Bellhead »

Eclipse wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:05 pm By far the most practical way for the collars to constantly resupply the collar with mana would be to simulate how human mana cores work, that requires the least maintenance out of all of the possible solutions. Using the Keidran's natural magic supply would require a constant supply of crystals. If it drew from their natural body processes you would need to give them extra food and drink. Their owner would want to spend as little time and money keeping them enslaved as possible, the ideal way to do that is if the collars automatically draw the mana from the air or ground like humans.
But if the collars sustained themselves with a source similar to a human's mana core, I would think that it would be far more conceivable for the basitin to have requested amulets or bracers, rather than have the ability of magic use programmed into them as they had the Templar do. The basitin race, or at least what we saw and heard from the old Intelligence General Alabaster, know quite a bit about nearly every subject related to the other races. They would obviously have researched magic to some degree before looking for self-modifications to get it for themselves. If the collars worked as simply as an artificial mana core, then the whole Basidian Isles arc would have been very different, as their abilities could be incorporated into their armor.

That said:
To be fair, a slave's job (typically) is usually manual labor of some kind, correct? They would already be eating and drinking more than a normal person would. And I'm assuming, with my theory, that these collars take less than a fraction of the power that most other spells would. Pennies on the dollar, as the saying goes. For somebody who's weak, it might have a noticeable effect, but for your typical slave whose job is primarily manual labor, such a small drain to minutely change a person's loyalties and decision making would probably not even be noticeable.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#54 Post by Eclipse »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:56 pm But if the collars sustained themselves with a source similar to a human's mana core, I would think that it would be far more conceivable for the basitin to have requested amulets or bracers, rather than have the ability of magic use programmed into them as they had the Templar do. The basitin race, or at least what we saw and heard from the old Intelligence General Alabaster, know quite a bit about nearly every subject related to the other races. They would obviously have researched magic to some degree before looking for self-modifications to get it for themselves. If the collars worked as simply as an artificial mana core, then the whole Basidian Isles arc would have been very different, as their abilities could be incorporated into their armor.
Even if they could incorporate mana cores into their armor that doesn't mean they can cast spells. They still need to be able to mentally draw on the mana and use it to cast spells, which they are unable to do. They could probably use enchanted armor powered by mana cores that's already pre-programmed to perform certain spells, and that could be something they're still interested in, but being able to use mana directly and naturally would be preferable. I'm thinking the collars would probably work similarly to said enchanted armor, it's a pre-programmed mana core meant to keep the wearer enslaved.
Bellhead wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:56 pm To be fair, a slave's job (typically) is usually manual labor of some kind, correct? They would already be eating and drinking more than a normal person would. And I'm assuming, with my theory, that these collars take less than a fraction of the power that most other spells would. Pennies on the dollar, as the saying goes. For somebody who's weak, it might have a noticeable effect, but for your typical slave whose job is primarily manual labor, such a small drain to minutely change a person's loyalties and decision making would probably not even be noticeable.
I'm not convinced the power needed to keep them enslaved is insignificant. There would need to be enough power to control the wearer's entire body and overwrite any thoughts that would go against their master's wishes. I don't think that's a "small drain". But even if it was pennies on the dollar, that's not how business owners typically operate. Even if it's just pennies, if it saves you money, that's still extra pennies that can be used on something else. So yes, a self-recharging collar that doesn't take up extra time and money would be the preferred way to keep them enslaved.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#55 Post by AmigaDragon »

Off the current (magic) thread, did Zen see someone back there before coming to Kat's aid or is he just hoping someone is within earshot to come help him?
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#56 Post by Technic[Bot] »

AmigaDragon wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:24 pm Off the current (magic) thread, did Zen see someone back there before coming to Kat's aid or is he just hoping someone is within earshot to come help him?
Kathrine also called out for help, despite also being unaware of Zen actual location. I think he simply hoped someone would hear them.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#57 Post by Shockwave07 »

What if Eric's family was involved in the creation of those slave cuffs?

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#58 Post by AmigaDragon »

There's too many other slavers and templar to single out the Vaughan family for that. There may have been many parallel developments before a standard (if there is one) was decided on.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#59 Post by Shockwave07 »

AmigaDragon wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:15 am There's too many other slavers and templar to single out the Vaughan family for that. There may have been many parallel developments before a standard (if there is one) was decided on.
I need to clarify this more. Not the standard design, but whay if the Vaugn family designed the version Kat is currently wearing and that is why it depowered at his voice?

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#60 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Shockwave07 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:25 pm
AmigaDragon wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:15 am There's too many other slavers and templar to single out the Vaughan family for that. There may have been many parallel developments before a standard (if there is one) was decided on.
I need to clarify this more. Not the standard design, but whay if the Vaugn family designed the version Kat is currently wearing and that is why it depowered at his voice?
It is likely Clovis design is custom not the standard slave cuff you buy at squirrel mart, in fact I would imagine is much more sophisticated than what Eric commonly uses. That being said he does slaves people for a living so I would stand to reason he knows ways to disable or workaround these things. I imagine Keidran rustling is a thing so there may be ways to prevent other people from stealing your slaves using their own collars and Erics has been shown to know his way around magic gadgets. Yet again that is not standard issue cuffs likely custom built for Clovis and his gang, who we know are actually well versed into magic. and is beaten by some random slaver shouting Kats name? If that is the case then Clovis is not that good at magic or those cuffs are not as good as we make them out to be.
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