Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#46 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:54 am
Bellhead wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:34 pm Couple things. Last we heard from Nora, she was entering a "long sleep" of sorts, in that cave. Also note her lines Here, "I'd feel better if I wasn't going into this long sleep alone", and "... But I'm... I understand, Trace." Would Nora, the oldest and strongest of dragons, have a reason to be so worried and lonely, and hesitant to sleep alone, if it was only for a month? Besides, we'd know if it was her. She never could resist shenanigans.
Nora Worried? Not about herself at least Perhaps worried about her friend Trace going to do god only knows what.
I still disagree, mainly based on Nora's line, "... But I'm..." , which seems to me to be very similar to an "I'm dying, so stay a little longer", but her other lines indicate that it might not be forever. Either way, note the tears in her eye in that last panel. It's the only time we've seen her emotions as anything other than the happy-go-lucky overpowered trickster, and she was genuinely saddened by it. She may have been worried about what Trace was going to do, but by what she said, she kind of expected him to go and save his friends, so that's not likely to be why she shed a tear there.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#47 Post by FuryoftheStars »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:54 am As for the kill switch I imagine after a bug fight Clovis is about to deliver the killer blow to Reni. And then Brahn projects himself through the gem and says: "i still have need for the dragon princess" or something to that effect and turns off Clovis amulet. Reni then proceeds to smash him into a smooth paste
I imagine it more like Reni trying hard to smash through whatever protective barrier Clovis has, and Brahn turns it off in that moment as a way to get rid of someone who knows his plans. After all, Clovis did expect Brahn to betray him.

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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#48 Post by Rafe »

I'm still wanting to know what Reni is going to see in Clovis' mind. Having all those secretive plots and counter-plots going on doesn't mean much when someone is there to read them. She might not have time to dig into his memories and see Brahn being involved, but you'd think she'd be concentrating, right now, on his next move in this fight. Unless Clovis is able to shield his thoughts somehow (which she would know), then she should see his next big move coming. Even if she can't do anything about it, she should at least be ready for it.

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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#49 Post by FuryoftheStars »

You know, I do wonder if there’s more to this mind reading that what we’re realizing. Like limitations of some sort. Requiring a level of concentration that would leave the dragon vulnerable (ie, all the dragon can “see” is what they’re getting out of the mind), or if someone can actively resist/shield thoughts, etc.

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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#50 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:27 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:54 am
Bellhead wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:34 pm Couple things. Last we heard from Nora, she was entering a "long sleep" of sorts, in that cave. Also note her lines Here, "I'd feel better if I wasn't going into this long sleep alone", and "... But I'm... I understand, Trace." Would Nora, the oldest and strongest of dragons, have a reason to be so worried and lonely, and hesitant to sleep alone, if it was only for a month? Besides, we'd know if it was her. She never could resist shenanigans.
Nora Worried? Not about herself at least Perhaps worried about her friend Trace going to do god only knows what.
I still disagree, mainly based on Nora's line, "... But I'm..." , which seems to me to be very similar to an "I'm dying, so stay a little longer", but her other lines indicate that it might not be forever. Either way, note the tears in her eye in that last panel. It's the only time we've seen her emotions as anything other than the happy-go-lucky overpowered trickster, and she was genuinely saddened by it. She may have been worried about what Trace was going to do, but by what she said, she kind of expected him to go and save his friends, so that's not likely to be why she shed a tear there.
On that same page Trace says
Trace wrote: Not while my friends need me...
What I think Nora was trying to say was not "But I am ... dying". She was about to say "But I am your friend too... And I need you" or something like that. She did not finished that sentence as she also understood that she is not the most important person for Trace and she respected that. But it hurt her deeply being rejected by one of her best friends.
Ultimately I think Nora happy-go-lucky personality Is a mask. And she is just sad and lonely. that is just my most positive interpretation of the character though.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#51 Post by MuonNeutrino »

FuryoftheStars wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:17 pm You know, I do wonder if there’s more to this mind reading that what we’re realizing. Like limitations of some sort. Requiring a level of concentration that would leave the dragon vulnerable (ie, all the dragon can “see” is what they’re getting out of the mind), or if someone can actively resist/shield thoughts, etc.
Given that when Reni read Trace's mind, she asked him to 'let me into your mind', seemed to have to concentrate on it, and there was a visual tell of glowing eyes, I would assume that you're correct. I highly doubt that dragons just read the minds of everyone around them. There's likely a significant difference between the telepathy that just transfers surface thoughts that a person was actively intending to communicate anyway and active mind-reading and delving into someone's memories. I doubt Reni is doing the sort of diving into Clovis's mind that has been speculated here.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#52 Post by Rafe »

Given the fact that Clovis and Reni are communicating with each other right now, she is already reading his thoughts and he's letting her into his mind. My guess is whatever is up front in his concious mind (like what he's planning to do to Reni) is plain for her to see.

I also assume that she can read memories whenever she wants, as she did with Brutus. When she probed Trace's memories, and later Maddie's and Karen's, she asked permission from them. I assume that's because it's the polite thing to do when you are doing someething that intrusive.

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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#53 Post by Technic[Bot] »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:40 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:17 pm You know, I do wonder if there’s more to this mind reading that what we’re realizing. Like limitations of some sort. Requiring a level of concentration that would leave the dragon vulnerable (ie, all the dragon can “see” is what they’re getting out of the mind), or if someone can actively resist/shield thoughts, etc.
Given that when Reni read Trace's mind, she asked him to 'let me into your mind', seemed to have to concentrate on it, and there was a visual tell of glowing eyes, I would assume that you're correct. I highly doubt that dragons just read the minds of everyone around them. There's likely a significant difference between the telepathy that just transfers surface thoughts that a person was actively intending to communicate anyway and active mind-reading and delving into someone's memories. I doubt Reni is doing the sort of diving into Clovis's mind that has been speculated here.
I agree with this, even if Reni were to try to read Clovis mind and there were no limitations about it i doubt she would be able to read and interpretate his thoughts fast enough to actually use it against him.
Rafe wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 5:23 pm Given the fact that Clovis and Reni are communicating with each other right now, she is already reading his thoughts and he's letting her into his mind. My guess is whatever is up front in his concious mind (like what he's planning to do to Reni) is plain for her to see.

I also assume that she can read memories whenever she wants, as she did with Brutus. When she probed Trace's memories, and later Maddie's and Karen's, she asked permission from them. I assume that's because it's the polite thing to do when you are doing someething that intrusive.
I think Reni can perfectly hear people via conventional methods, she simply cannot produce any intelligible sounds using her voice, hence the mind... broadcast (?) In any case I imagine a chat with Reni can become quite an intrusive affair given her telepathic abilities.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#54 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:24 pmI think Reni can perfectly hear people via conventional methods, she simply cannot produce any intelligible sounds using her voice, hence the mind... broadcast (?) In any case I imagine a chat with Reni can become quite an intrusive affair given her telepathic abilities.
If memory serves, she can hear people's voices, but can't make sense of them. Her dragon form definitely can't speak, but I highly doubt her human form is incapable. That said, when somebody's talking, it would make sense that those thoughts would be "outgoing" thoughts, as they would be trying to convey something to somebody else. Seeing what somebody wants you to see, versus seeing what they would rather keep hidden. Remember Zen and Natani, back in Zen's room? He had the option do dig and pry into Nat's memories, but chose not to.

It would also make sense that, under most circumstances, any normal person wouldn't be consciously trying to "transmit" their thoughts in a way that a telepathic being would be able to read without effort. Certainly not somebody like Clovis, and certainly not in a fighting situation.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#55 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:23 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:24 pmI think Reni can perfectly hear people via conventional methods, she simply cannot produce any intelligible sounds using her voice, hence the mind... broadcast (?) In any case I imagine a chat with Reni can become quite an intrusive affair given her telepathic abilities.
If memory serves, she can hear people's voices, but can't make sense of them. Her dragon form definitely can't speak, but I highly doubt her human form is incapable. That said, when somebody's talking, it would make sense that those thoughts would be "outgoing" thoughts, as they would be trying to convey something to somebody else. Seeing what somebody wants you to see, versus seeing what they would rather keep hidden. Remember Zen and Natani, back in Zen's room? He had the option do dig and pry into Nat's memories, but chose not to.

It would also make sense that, under most circumstances, any normal person wouldn't be consciously trying to "transmit" their thoughts in a way that a telepathic being would be able to read without effort. Certainly not somebody like Clovis, and certainly not in a fighting situation.
As per Reni
She speaks telepathically, that much is hard fact, but the way she hears... Well is a bit unclear by the way it is worded: "You hear my intentions, and as you speak words, I can hear yours." Hold on what? Does she means she hears words, would be the simplest method, and maybe add some telepathy for different languages? Or as someone speaks she can read his mind/intentions? Seems like and awful redundant way to listen to someone. Her Reference Sheet does not provide further information, only that she can speak human normally on human form, also if is whatever she is hearing is not alive, ie a book a memory or a recording and it is not in human languafe she cannot decipher it as there is no mind to read. Do not think this is a problem if "recording" is in human though.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#56 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:46 amAs per Reni
She speaks telepathically, that much is hard fact, but the way she hears... Well is a bit unclear by the way it is worded: "You hear my intentions, and as you speak words, I can hear yours." Hold on what? Does she means she hears words, would be the simplest method, and maybe add some telepathy for different languages? Or as someone speaks she can read his mind/intentions? Seems like and awful redundant way to listen to someone. Her Reference Sheet does not provide further information, only that she can speak human normally on human form, also if is whatever she is hearing is not alive, ie a book a memory or a recording and it is not in human languafe she cannot decipher it as there is no mind to read. Do not think this is a problem if "recording" is in human though.
Simplified: "You hear my [communicated thoughts], and as you [express your thoughts verbally using a language], I can hear [the thoughts you are trying to communicate]."

Spoken language is, in simplest terms, a way to communicate thoughts through verbal action. A translation of thoughts, if you will. Like a sketch of a photograph, versus the actual photograph, or written music versus a recording of it. Reni broadcasts her thoughts directly, rather than going through a translated verbal language, and thus has little experience with verbal communication. She instead will interpret the meaning of a person's speech by the thoughts they intend to convey by using it.

Basically, when people speak, they are trying (probably subconsciously) to transmit those thoughts to others, and in doing so, would actually transmit those thoughts on a level that a being with telepathic abilities would be able to sense without effort. On the other hand, it is easier for a person to remember what they said, rather than what they meant when they said it, hence why Reni has trouble interpreting people's memories for information.
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#57 Post by steelabjur »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:54 am
Bellhead wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:34 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 3:06 pm
SmileWolf wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 3:56 am Of course Nora loves to use a cat form, perhaps she has awoken from her healing sleep.. I don't think she would take kindly to some impudent keidran trying to injure or kill a dragon. :nora:
While that is true, and was one of my first thoughts as well, closer inspection shows a shading difference down the nose, indicating this cat isn’t a solid (white) color, meaning it’s doubtful that it’s Nora. :(

If it’s the seer girl, then a part of me wonders if Braun is going to betray Clovis at a critical moment and, maybe through some secret knowledge/backdoor that was put in the gem, turn it off. But I don’t know if something like that is possible in this world.
Couple things. Last we heard from Nora, she was entering a "long sleep" of sorts, in that cave. Also note her lines Here, "I'd feel better if I wasn't going into this long sleep alone", and "... But I'm... I understand, Trace." Would Nora, the oldest and strongest of dragons, have a reason to be so worried and lonely, and hesitant to sleep alone, if it was only for a month? Besides, we'd know if it was her. She never could resist shenanigans.

As for the Seer angle, I think that's most plausible here. Maybe not his daughter, but I'd bet it's one of the two of them, especially given that it was Brahn who gave him that amulet in the first place.

In relations to Brahn being able to "turn off" the amulet at a critical moment, I'd say that's definitely possible, and though I can't link it right now, I'll cite Clovis' "backdoor" into Nat and Zen's link as depicted in TDM. He was able to not only appear in their presence in ethereal form and read their minds, but when needed, could also take over Natani's body by force, unlike what he and Zen can do. Brahn programming in a kill switch for an overpowered rare amulet he's giving to a self-serving greedy fox-wolf head of a guild of assassins, seems less "maybe he did" and more "I wonder when he'll use it", even more so when you consider what the Templar are capable of when magic is involved.
Nora Worried? Not about herself at least Perhaps worried about her friend Trace going to do god only knows what. Maybe next time she wakes up Trace will be gone this time for good. I can see her worrying about that.

And loneliness? Well all the power in the world won't get your friends nor people who really care for you. People will respect and/or fear you but will be harder for them to love you. On top of that i think Trace is the only real friend Nora has at current time. I can totally see Nora, under all that trickster persona as fundamentally alone.

As for the kill switch I imagine after a bug fight Clovis is about to deliver the killer blow to Reni. And then Brahn projects himself through the gem and says: "i still have need for the dragon princess" or something to that effect and turns off Clovis amulet. Reni then proceeds to smash him into a smooth paste
Another option is Brahn teleports Clovis out of there, preventing Clovis and the amulet being captured (both of which might reveal to Reni and company Brahn's involvement with the rogue and the attack on the city).

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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#58 Post by Bellhead »

steelabjur wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:53 am Another option is Brahn teleports Clovis out of there, preventing Clovis and the amulet being captured (both of which might reveal to Reni and company Brahn's involvement with the rogue and the attack on the city).
Are you taking into account the supposed magic resistance shield... thing.. that Clovis currently has coming from that amulet? It clearly has the capacity to block dragon magic and fireballs, who's to say it would allow any random third party to initiate a teleport, within the Manor, no less?

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Brahn had that sort of a backdoor programmed in, but something tells me that the Manor's defenses would prevent any sort of teleport from within the walls. At least, any that didn't originate from Trace or somebody close to him.

It's an interesting idea, though. I'm surprised we didn't think of that earlier...
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Re: Comic for April 25, 2021: Clovis vs. Reni

#59 Post by steelabjur »

Bellhead wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:31 pm
steelabjur wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:53 am Another option is Brahn teleports Clovis out of there, preventing Clovis and the amulet being captured (both of which might reveal to Reni and company Brahn's involvement with the rogue and the attack on the city).
Are you taking into account the supposed magic resistance shield... thing.. that Clovis currently has coming from that amulet? It clearly has the capacity to block dragon magic and fireballs, who's to say it would allow any random third party to initiate a teleport, within the Manor, no less?

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Brahn had that sort of a backdoor programmed in, but something tells me that the Manor's defenses would prevent any sort of teleport from within the walls. At least, any that didn't originate from Trace or somebody close to him.

It's an interesting idea, though. I'm surprised we didn't think of that earlier...
The manor's defenses are, if not down, then running on very low power due to what is going on with Maren. I wasn't taking into account the amulet, but as a backdoor function, I can't think of a better one for a mage to work into a magic protection item than "it doesn't work on me". It would also be a good object lesson for Clovis.

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