Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

The comic stuff here.

Moderator: Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
Rafe
Templar Master
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:00 am

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#31 Post by Rafe »

For those who missed or forgot about it, here's some major background to what we're discussing. Start here and check out the next three pages or so:

https://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/989/

Reni explains how her telepathy lets her understand thoughts without knowing the language,
Reni tells about how she knew about the wolves plans for the attack on Edinmire and
When she mentions hearing the name Clovis, Natani tells her exactly who Clovis is.

These were posted... jeeze, four years ago, so I guess forgetting about them is forgiveable.

User avatar
Technic[Bot]
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:48 pm
Location: México
Favorite Character: Keith!
Contact:

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#32 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Zaigan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:33 am
-snip-

Ah, I think all his trembling, especially noticeable in the sketches shows that he doesn't really believe what he's saying. He knows he really loved Brutus, on some level. It still almost seems romantic, although it could just be passionate friendship, although I could totally see Clovis's womanizing mixed with his hatred of them as overcompensating for closeting himself and that he's actually gay. In a way, so much of himself is being false, isn't it? He tries to claim to be a "golden wolf" to hide being a hybrid of fox and wolf. He hid away after he was transformed, unable to face being cursed with a female body. I bet he'd gay panic and bury those feelings as deep as he could. He probably made excuses all their lives as to why he kept Brutus around, he tried to cage the love into so many other things. Say he was just using him, say he just was a good bodyguard. Other guys in his cartel picked up on them being extra close.

He thought he could escape those feelings, so for the first time in his life he's truly experiencing loss... and recognizing that he brought it upon himself. He's likely having his first experience with remorse.

I mean, I said I don't think he deserves forgiveness, but maybe that's not really in the spirit of TwoKinds. Before the memory wipe Trace was a genocidal monster who likely had a body count of innocents that rivals Clovis... but we only get brief glimpses and that's not "our" Trace. However, Trace is remembering bits and pieces, and is kind of reconnecting the two lives he lead, in hopefully a healing way. That means he, too, has a lot to make amends for. Perhaps, in the light that Clovis hasn't staged a complete genocide, his crimes will be punished in some other way.

Gonna take a lot of lifetimes to work off that karma debt, though.
I really like your theory.
Also I have always thought that Tom just unceremoniously offing Clovis "'cus he is evil!" would be against the the spirit of the comic. Trace was/is definetely worse than Clovis and got a chance a redemption he did not deserved nor wanted. Why shouldn't Clovis be offered something similar, moreover he does not need to accept. Trace is, slowly but surely, accepting his sins and that his memory wipe is not a good reason not to atone for them. If Clovis is offered another chance he could simply refuse, then he could die.
Rasol wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:48 pm
I feel like you're missing something. Clovis didn't kill Brutus because he was bad for business. Clovis killed Brutus because he is SCARED of the emotions he feels for him.

If this was about business, there wouldn't have been any reason to kill his best, and most loyal henchman. Brutus is still a valuable asset. Nothing he did was out of line, or endangered the business in any MEANINGFUL way.

No, Clovis heard his FRIEND (no matter if he will admit it or not) was in danger, and he had a fleeting thought that he would risk himself to save him. He put the interests of another person ahead of his own. He didn't act on it though. He just thought it. And it shook him to his core. That is why Brutus had to die.

And for what it's worth. I don't WANT Brutus to survive. Clovis clearly regrets his decision. His hands were trembling, and he's trying his best to justify it. But it wont work. For what he did, for the killing of his childhood friend. He needs to SUFFER. Saving Brutus will only cheapen that death, and alleviate Clovis torment.

I still want to see how far this goes. I want to see how ugly the world is that produced a man like Clovis. He didn't become who he is because of something simple. Like Trace, this monster was born from the trauma of a broken world. I want to see what made Clovis the "Prince of greed" the monster he is.
I agree I would prefer Brutus to rest in peace, not because he doesn't deserved another chance perhaps finding better "friends". But it would remove some of the emotional weight of the situation, for us, and Clovis would suffer exponentially more if he had to live his life knowing he killed the only person that cared for him. Besides if he survives he would have to come to terms with his best friend killing, it would break Brutus heart, poor fella does not deserve that, i think he is better frolicking with Laura in the afterlife believing Clovis loved him till the end. That being said there are a couple scenarios where Brutus could survive without making it easier for Clovis.
  1. Clovis dies first, dying with the knowledge he killed his best friends, for all eternity
  2. Brutus end up killing Clovis (et tu Brutus?) so not only he dies knowing he killed his friend, but that he also shattered the only true bond he ever had
And yes I am still pushing for the Roman assasination reference :D
Rafe wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:20 am For those who missed or forgot about it, here's some major background to what we're discussing. Start here and check out the next three pages or so:

https://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/989/

Reni explains how her telepathy lets her understand thoughts without knowing the language,
Reni tells about how she knew about the wolves plans for the attack on Edinmire and
When she mentions hearing the name Clovis, Natani tells her exactly who Clovis is.

These were posted... jeeze, four years ago, so I guess forgetting about them is forgiveable.
That explains why she decided to burn him despite never seeing him before. Else... well I did not thought Reni was the type of "Roast them first and ask question later" Also for all stated above I hope Clovis doesn't just ends up reduced to charcoal bricket just now. That is a very easy way for him to go.
There are three things that motivate people: Money, fear and love.
Links to my ramblings:
Twokinds [of] data
PhpBB in the age of facebook
If you are new to this phpBB thing:
BBCode guide

Dreamfox
Traveler
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:46 am

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#33 Post by Dreamfox »

Rafe wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:19 am I assume that one of the reasons that the sometimes cautious Reni is in full attack mode right now, is that she knows exactly who Clovis is, and what he's up to. Not only that, but I doubt he was protecting his thoughts about what he just did to his childhood friend from being read. Reni probably just saw his flashbck, and his lame rationalization for killing Brutus just like we did. And remember, Brutus told her (and Maddie and Karen) about his relationship with Clovis, so what just happened is probably very clear to her. Plus, Clovis looks to be talking to himself in Human. This should be easy for Reni to follow. Maybe Clovis' "that should be enough" comment means there's still a chance for Brutus, and he's not quite dead yet.
1. There is a charred body on the floor.
2. Either Brutus is already dead and she can't get anything from him through telepathy or he is still fading. Something she might feel or she could see Brutus' last thoughts, probably easily putting together that he was just murdered by his best friend and boss.
3. She said in # 961 that she could keep an eye on everyone regardless where they are. So even if Clovis has some kind of mind shield, after the battle at the 'beach' she should easily be able to figure out what is going on and who the culprit is. Reni might even gotten everything that happened live during the battle, depending on her abilities. She might even be aware of Clovis' capabilities and her appearance is meant to surprise and shock him so she has a chance to grab him before he teleports away.

User avatar
Rasol
Traveler
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:30 pm
Favorite Character: Keith

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#34 Post by Rasol »

Bellhead wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:11 pm
Rasol wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:32 pm Likely he's been hurt by those attachments in the past.
I kinda doubt that, honestly. He seems more like the paranoid type to me; somebody who sees any sort of weakness, any possible angle of attack open against him, as something that must be destroyed. "Somebody can use this against me. It has to go."

From what we see in this page, it seems clear that Brutus was just about the closest single individual, emotionally speaking, that Clovis ever had. If somebody was going to betray him and have it cause this level of distrust, it would have to be him. Otherwise, he would have known not to let anyone get that close to him; he would have seen it coming.
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Given the panel of him & Brutus as kids. They look pretty happy. Clovis was not ALWAYS the man he is today.
I'd hazard a guess. Something happened. Something traumatic that changed him for the worse.
We've seen it already with Trace, so we know Tom isn't against having trauma lead people down darker paths.

If/when we will see what made Clovis the "Prince of Greed" that he has become remains to be seen however, so until Tom gives us some insight, all we can do is speculate.

There is also the possibility he has learned not to trust these weaknesses because they are the means he used to eliminate his competition on his rise to the top as well. Remember, Clovis didn't START the assassin guild. He rose through its ranks, and found himself at the top. This is a whole guild who is made of nothing but thieves & murderers (Brutus included). But even then, he would still need a catalyst. Something to draw him into this kind of action.

User avatar
Technic[Bot]
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:48 pm
Location: México
Favorite Character: Keith!
Contact:

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#35 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Rasol wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:20 pm
Bellhead wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:11 pm
Rasol wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:32 pm Likely he's been hurt by those attachments in the past.
I kinda doubt that, honestly. He seems more like the paranoid type to me; somebody who sees any sort of weakness, any possible angle of attack open against him, as something that must be destroyed. "Somebody can use this against me. It has to go."

From what we see in this page, it seems clear that Brutus was just about the closest single individual, emotionally speaking, that Clovis ever had. If somebody was going to betray him and have it cause this level of distrust, it would have to be him. Otherwise, he would have known not to let anyone get that close to him; he would have seen it coming.
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Given the panel of him & Brutus as kids. They look pretty happy. Clovis was not ALWAYS the man he is today.
I'd hazard a guess. Something happened. Something traumatic that changed him for the worse.
We've seen it already with Trace, so we know Tom isn't against having trauma lead people down darker paths.

If/when we will see what made Clovis the "Prince of Greed" that he has become remains to be seen however, so until Tom gives us some insight, all we can do is speculate.

There is also the possibility he has learned not to trust these weaknesses because they are the means he used to eliminate his competition on his rise to the top as well. Remember, Clovis didn't START the assassin guild. He rose through its ranks, and found himself at the top. This is a whole guild who is made of nothing but thieves & murderers (Brutus included). But even then, he would still need a catalyst. Something to draw him into this kind of action.
I may be wrong but I think the assassin guild is a different organization that Clovis syndicate. Nat and Zan worked at former but when Nat had that dark magic incident they had to go with Clovis for help. And that is why they ended working for him
There are three things that motivate people: Money, fear and love.
Links to my ramblings:
Twokinds [of] data
PhpBB in the age of facebook
If you are new to this phpBB thing:
BBCode guide

steelabjur
Templar Master
Posts: 497
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:59 am

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#36 Post by steelabjur »

I doubt Clovis has much to fear from Reni's fire, given to how his minions reacted to her previously to that threat. Surely Clovis would be even better protected than them. Clovis also has teleport magic.

User avatar
Rafe
Templar Master
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:00 am

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#37 Post by Rafe »

steelabjur wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:59 pm I doubt Clovis has much to fear from Reni's fire, given to how his minions reacted to her previously to that threat. Surely Clovis would be even better protected than them. Clovis also has teleport magic.
One thing Reni is good at is reading minds. If Clovis reacts the way his minions did, and stands his ground assuming he's protected agains her fire, Reni (who knew what they were thinking), will probably distact Clovis with fire, and then squash him like a bug.

His only chance is to teleport out. Fast. It has to be very hard to put something over on a telepathic dragon.

Whether Clovis escapes or not, what I'm really looking forward to is Reni's reaction when she gets inside that incredibly sick mind of his.

User avatar
AmigaDragon
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:20 pm
Location: Far Northern Minnesota
Contact:

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#38 Post by AmigaDragon »

Rafe wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:17 pm One thing Reni is good at is reading minds. If Clovis reacts the way his minions did, and stands his ground assuming he's protected agains her fire, Reni (who knew what they were thinking), will probably distact Clovis with fire, and then squash him like a bug.
I think Clovis was the last one standing on the wall, confident in his fire protection, leaving only after Brutus got knocked off.
"Cogito, ergo es. I think, therefore you is." Ray D. Tutto (King of the Moon) to Baron Munschaussen

User avatar
Zaigan
Traveler
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:34 am
Favorite Character: Natani

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#39 Post by Zaigan »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:30 am
I agree I would prefer Brutus to rest in peace, not because he doesn't deserved another chance perhaps finding better "friends". But it would remove some of the emotional weight of the situation, for us, and Clovis would suffer exponentially more if he had to live his life knowing he killed the only person that cared for him. Besides if he survives he would have to come to terms with his best friend killing, it would break Brutus heart, poor fella does not deserve that, i think he is better frolicking with Laura in the afterlife believing Clovis loved him till the end. That being said there are a couple scenarios where Brutus could survive without making it easier for Clovis.
  1. Clovis dies first, dying with the knowledge he killed his best friends, for all eternity
  2. Brutus end up killing Clovis (et tu Brutus?) so not only he dies knowing he killed his friend, but that he also shattered the only true bond he ever had
And yes I am still pushing for the Roman assasination reference :D
Thanks for liking my theory! It would be interesting to see how Clovis would respond to a chance to make amends for his transgressions. Both the path where he's willing and the path where he rejects this last call for reform would be interesting to watch play out! I could see if he refuses that play on Ceaser's execution to be very fitting. However, since I still kinda ship it even though there have been some more than terrible missteps, I'd like to see Clovis open up to Brutus. Maybe he still deserves to be turned down for awhile until he's finished his penance. I could see the possiblity of Clovis dying in the material world and somehow having to work off his sins in the afterlife, with Brutus forgiving him at that point and being happy about his efforts.

Although, curiously that picture you linked. Some interesting wording there. It does say Laura is showing Brutus around the afterlife while he's visiting. I think that might be a teaser that his current lack of life is a temporary state. He hasn't moved on permanently, it's just a day trip!

Sort of echoes with that one time Laura got a daytrip out in the body of her Heart's desire clone.
Image

User avatar
Ainoko Ironrose
Traveler
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:28 am

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#40 Post by Ainoko Ironrose »

Rasol wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:48 pm
Eclipse wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:24 pm And yeah, that flashback just makes Clovis look even more like a scumbag. Enough Tom, we already get that Clovis is a scumbag that tried to off his friend to keep him from hurting his business. Revealing that Clovis is a scumbag that tried to off his childhood friend to keep him from hurting his business is just unnecessary overkill.
I feel like you're missing something. Clovis didn't kill Brutus because he was bad for business. Clovis killed Brutus because he is SCARED of the emotions he feels for him.

If this was about business, there wouldn't have been any reason to kill his best, and most loyal henchman. Brutus is still a valuable asset. Nothing he did was out of line, or endangered the business in any MEANINGFUL way.

No, Clovis heard his FRIEND (no matter if he will admit it or not) was in danger, and he had a fleeting thought that he would risk himself to save him. He put the interests of another person ahead of his own. He didn't act on it though. He just thought it. And it shook him to his core. That is why Brutus had to die.

And for what it's worth. I don't WANT Brutus to survive. Clovis clearly regrets his decision. His hands were trembling, and he's trying his best to justify it. But it wont work. For what he did, for the killing of his childhood friend. He needs to SUFFER. Saving Brutus will only cheapen that death, and alleviate Clovis torment.

I still want to see how far this goes. I want to see how ugly the world is that produced a man like Clovis. He didn't become who he is because of something simple. Like Trace, this monster was born from the trauma of a broken world. I want to see what made Clovis the "Prince of greed" the monster he is.
If Brutus survives or dies this this means trouble for Clovis. Should Brutus be saved, he could quite possibly forgive Clovis for trying to kill him, but he would, with nearly 100% certainty turn against his childhood friend and help trace and Co. capture him.

As for Clovis, his only hope is to flee and to fight another day, otherwise he is going to be fresh meat. Saving Brutus won't alliveate Clovis' torment just make it worse, torment him to no end and force him into some serious damage control as he would be correct in fearing that his friend and henchman will turn against him.

In short, Clovis has more to fear and regret should Brutus survive.
I found my thrill...
On Blueberry Hill...

It was there...
I made my first kill...

User avatar
Zaigan
Traveler
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:34 am
Favorite Character: Natani

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#41 Post by Zaigan »

Small post, but I didn't notice before.. I think I see a tiny puff of breath coming out of Brutus. It's shape and position would be a little off for stone floor shading, so he could be in the dying process, but still breathing, just barely! Better than having already succumbed while Clovis has his soliloquy.
Image

FuryoftheStars
New Citizen
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:21 pm
Favorite Character: ---

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#42 Post by FuryoftheStars »

Zaigan wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 am Small post, but I didn't notice before.. I think I see a tiny puff of breath coming out of Brutus. It's shape and position would be a little off for stone floor shading, so he could be in the dying process, but still breathing, just barely! Better than having already succumbed while Clovis has his soliloquy.
Could be that "final breath" fiction is famous for.

User avatar
Rasol
Traveler
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:30 pm
Favorite Character: Keith

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#43 Post by Rasol »

Zaigan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:33 am I mean, I said I don't think he deserves forgiveness, but maybe that's not really in the spirit of TwoKinds. Before the memory wipe Trace was a genocidal monster who likely had a body count of innocents that rivals Clovis... but we only get brief glimpses and that's not "our" Trace. However, Trace is remembering bits and pieces, and is kind of reconnecting the two lives he lead, in hopefully a healing way. That means he, too, has a lot to make amends for. Perhaps, in the light that Clovis hasn't staged a complete genocide, his crimes will be punished in some other way.
As much of a [censored] as Clovis might be, I'd sincerely doubt he has a body count even approaching old Trace. Even if you account for the killings he hired people to do, this would be like comparing a mob boss, with a few hundred, or maybe a couple thousand bodies at their feet, to a warlord, who ABSOLUTELY burned villages to the ground, and murdered every resident. Not just the men, but the women and children too. They were like animals, and he slaughtered them like animals.

Being fair to Clovis, he TRIED to burn a village to the ground & start a new geocidal war, but he failed

Clovis is NO saint. Neither is Brutus TBH. But the weight of their sins is nothing compared to what we have been told Trace did in his madness.

Bojack727
New Citizen
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:01 am
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Favorite Character: King Adelaide

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#44 Post by Bojack727 »

Everyone rightfully mentions that Brutus knowingly worked for a pretty bad person. But, for me at least, I think the fact that Brutus was so endearingly dumb and clueless when weighed against what he did (and who he worked for), that he comes across as being much more innocent. I think there's also an element of tragedy to his character, that its sad when I think about the fact that under different circumstances, Brutus could have been a beloved good guy.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

aitaituo
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:02 pm

Re: Comic for April 14, 2021: No Hard Feelings

#45 Post by aitaituo »

Bojack727 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:22 pm Everyone rightfully mentions that Brutus knowingly worked for a pretty bad person. But, for me at least, I think the fact that Brutus was so endearingly dumb and clueless when weighed against what he did (and who he worked for), that he comes across as being much more innocent. I think there's also an element of tragedy to his character, that its sad when I think about the fact that under different circumstances, Brutus could have been a beloved good guy.
Brutus was certainly a good person according to his own moral compass. That makes him redeemable, but it does not make him innocent. He was not completely isolated from the world. It takes more than naivety to assault innocent townspeople with weapons of mass destruction while lying about your identity and think everything's hunky dory.

Post Reply